small cat liveaboard&slow circumnavigation: PDQ 32 or FP 35 Tobago or Lagoon 35CCC

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

I think you better get a bigger boat.....

Testsailing a 38ft and 46ft soon, and a FP35 too.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Me, I consider the Gemini, 105MC as Blue water capable,
Mines in Australia, After sailing all over the south Pacific, From San Diego, USA,
Hawai, Fiji, Tonga, New Caladonia, Vanuatu, Etc,

After 2002 they were certified CE for Blue water after a bit of design change,
Tony Smith the Builder after crossing the North Atlantic in a Gemini 105MC to deliver it to England,
Ripped out the Cherry Wood Panelling to make it lighter, He also did 24 knots in his one on the way to England,
There is a video of it on Vimeo,

I bought mine in Fiji and single handed it back to Australla with out problems,

Captain Rivet, Get onto Youtube videos and get a walk around on a Gemini 105MC,
They do come in your price range, But only look at ones with all the Bells and Whistles already on it,
The Catamaran Company have a few for sale,

Only the Gemini 105MC Between 2002 and 2010,

Earlier and later models than these dates are not the same boats,

I bought my Gemini 105 MC, to sail in Bass Straight, The Tasman Sea and the Southern Ocean, If I didnt think it was capable, I would not have bought it,

Cheers, Brian,

I thought there is a well known quote of him saying "never again" or something like that, after crossing in his own boat. I suppose that's what the design changes you mention could be about. I would argue though that none of these small, narrow beam, low bridgedeck boats hold a candle to something like a Privilege 37 or 39 etc.. in terms of comfort, protection, and load carrying, and aren't those all things the OP wants?

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

I thought there is a well known quote of him saying "never again" or something like that, after crossing in his own boat. I suppose that's what the design changes you mention could be about. I would argue though that none of these small, narrow beam, low bridgedeck boats hold a candle to something like a Privilege 37 or 39 etc.. in terms of comfort, protection, and load carrying, and aren't those all things the OP wants?

He certainly did say that, He just doesnt like crossing oceans, Its a personal preference for him,
The design changes I mentioned made the boat lighter,

Priveledge 37 or 39 are bigger boats,

I could also argue that a 70 foot Cat would be better too, For every thing you mention,
He has a lot of Cats to choose from, The Gemini is just one of them,
I did look at a Prout and a Seawind before I bought my Gemini,
There are a lot of Seawinds here in Australia,
The Gemini was my personal preference for what I wanted to do with it,

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by riki

Well, you have your personal idea of "blue water capability", i respect that even if i don't agree. Safety is a matter of "levels", and personally i would put speed as absolute first: I would feel much more comfortable in a light fast vessel that could cover a crossing in much less time than a modern condomaran making the risk of getting nasty weather in the middle of nothing much smaller. And about sturdiness, believe me (didn't believe that till i had real direct experience) many modern condomarans of the most common brands can be defined in many ways but "sturdy" not one of them, specially compared to some older vessels that were absolutelly overbuilt, strong and sturdy indeed.

Thats why I am flying to Norway soon and check out a 38ft TRT 1200 CR, sturdiness of a boat build for the tough sea in northern climates, saftey, well prooven build in execellent condition as far as I can judged now, well enough payload and acceptable comfort for 2 person regular on board but up to 8 if needed or wanted.

But I disagree with speed, its a nice and welcomed add on but not a top requirement. I like speed and even monohull sailing but if you on live aboard others priorities come first, as mainly solo sailor and on my budget even more. But if I am lucky and TRT is like its presented , then I would have a cat that ticks the speed box well too.

I absolutley agree with your statement of modern condomerans on sturdies.
First hand experience: delievered in 2017 a new FP 47 directly from factory in La Rochelle to Antigua and if I would be the owner I wouldn't have even left the dock in La Rochelle with that piece of garbage for 1.3 Mio $. Super fancy looking, luxery pure and overloaded with all the gear you can imagine but below all that...it brought us safely there with wooping average speed of 5.3kn (only standard sail, 2 diving compressors and a jetski were more important) but mainly because of an excellent crew, triple and quadrouple backup planing and tons of spares we had to exchange on the way which we only had on board because we/crew forced the owner to get them otherwise we would all back off...eg the halyard sheckle on top of the mast broke 6 times, wasn't properly designed for the load of the 47ft standard sail (found later out it was taken over from the 44ft Helia, factory changed that meanwhile)...only 2 replacements shekles tied together with dyneema kept the sail up in 30kn of wind but were bended quite strongly. I don't wanna know what would have happened if a proper storm would have hit us..we only had 2 replacments of 10 left at this point and without that no mainsail. easier to say what didn't break or needed a fix. After arrival we named her SV Gaffa (after the tape :-))

[Jeannius]

I'd never heard of the TRT 1200 so thought I'd take a quick look. First thoughts... No guard rails, no life lines, small water tanks. Some money to be spent before venturing out of sight of land I think.

[CaptainRivet]

On the TRT is am looking at all is there... 2x150l water tanks is OK too. I add a water maker and hardtop Bimini as rain catcher as 3rd water backup.
What's on the low side is 2x60l diesel tanks... Well space for a 150l tank additional is there or I just toss 300l in 20l canistor on when needed.

[Training Wheels]

TRT’s are way on the performance side of the spectrum, they will easily fly a hull. Hope you have the sailing experience to tame it.

[jmh2002]

Maybe a fuel bladder instead, for passages? Jerry cans (canisters) are terrible, except maybe that they can be carried ashore to be refilled, but this is terrible too.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

TRT’s are way on the performance side of the spectrum, they will easily fly a hull. Hope you have the sailing experience to tame it.

Yeah, good
As heavier CR version with two 30hp inboard diesels and water tanks full does it easily fly a hull too?

I will figure taming it, you never stop learning...

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

On the TRT is am looking at all is there... 2x150l water tanks is OK too. I add a water maker and hardtop Bimini as rain catcher as 3rd water backup.
What's on the low side is 2x60l diesel tanks... Well space for a 150l tank additional is there or I just toss 300l in 20l canistor on when needed.

I would carry 4 x 20ltr cans in addition to the existing 120ltrs of fixed tankage. Being able to continue sailing in very light winds is the key and the TRT will let you do this but not with an excessive load of fuel or water on board. Compare the engine hours to the distance travelled log, this will give you an idea of how well the boat sails.

We sail with 220ltr (4 x 55ltr tanks) of diesel to supply 2x27hp engines. We carry 1 spare 20ltr can of diesel just in case we have to jury rig a supply to one of the engines due to contamination or blockage.

Having a larger water tank capacity is useful for when you are at anchor, can't use the water maker for some reason, and have to relay on going along side to fill up. But you only need 150-200ltrs when sailing if you have a water maker.

These have been our requirements for ocean crossings and have never even come close to running out of fuel or water.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I would carry 4 x 20ltr cans in addition to the existing 120ltrs of fixed tankage. Being able to continue sailing in very light winds is the key and the TRT will let you do this but not with an excessive load of fuel or water on board. Compare the engine hours to the distance travelled log, this will give you an idea of how well the boat sails.

We sail with 220ltr (4 x 55ltr tanks) of diesel to supply 2x27hp engines. We carry 1 spare 20ltr can of diesel just in case we have to jury rig a supply to one of the engines due to contamination or blockage.

Having a larger water tank capacity is useful for when you are at anchor, can't use the water maker for some reason, and have to relay on going along side to fill up. But you only need 150-200ltrs when sailing if you have a water maker.

These have been our requirements for ocean crossings and have never even come close to running out of fuel or water.

thank you for your input, good points
trt sails well without doubt. it has below 500h on the engines since 2009. They have 2x120A Alternators and due to owner 1/3 of runtime only used to charge the 230ah AGM bank and run the 2kw heater...200W solar on board but connected to charge the starter batteries....Norway costal setup here
I would change that to approx 1000W Solar, 2 Wind turbines and a 600AH Lithium bank with two inverters. A 600W for small stuff can be "quite often or permanent" on/small draw + 4000W inverter on request so watermaker/heater/AC/Kitchen stuff running selfsuffient off this setup without turning engine on, engine is only charge backup in case not enough wind or sun or gear failure. Also less gas usage as 2/3 cooking with power, only 1/3 gas so smaller gas tank too. and as backup when electric fails.

Diesel:

Like this 2x60l tanks+ 2x20l cherry cans (like you said for blockage reasons, swaping/quick top up) as standard setup plus for long distance passages 100l in jerry cans per each 1000nm planed should do it. that can be easly adapted when experience with the fully kitted boat.

As said with 2x150l water tank+ water maker+ hardtop bimini working also as rain catcher I am safe on fresh water supply too.


just how things can go wrong and we had a rescue boat captian in our crew on the FP47: first all was perfect but when we were 1000nm out in the altlantic things change and we were really unlucky with the weather. we needed to get away from strom, then avoid another big storm front, then stay ahead a huge no wind front and even had 3 days the wind from the bow.So instead 2300nm we were forced to go low down south and then up so 3600NM at the end. And force to motor sailing a lot to get even in the rough right direction or stay ahead trouble. So we went through 900l of diesel, 800l tank and 5 cherry cans with the FP47 from Mallorca to Antigua. Arrived with 5l diesel left in Antigua. It was another crew member who requested the 5 cherry cans extra, everybody laughed and rest of crew just took them with to give him piece of mind. thanks good we took with what each of the crew member requested as must have for a safe passage as we needed nearly all...boy were we happy about this extra 100l diesel...
All this weather trouble using up our diesel, the water maker too and then we ran out of propane gas 600nm out of Antigua and were forced to cook with electric 220V gear like Microwave and tea kettle which needed the genset to run...We had a 30l gas bottle freshly filled in Mallorca, enough for a big house for 6 month and nobody of us even imagined that we could run out of gas but we did.
As we found out, they must have **** up a fitting directly at the bottle when they reinstalled it on the boat in Mallorca and it leaked but only slightly that we didn't notice. It was stored in a front outside locker so gas went directly to outside and in such small amounts it was not noticeable and because it was so big nobody went to check how much gas was left, we have plenty...but after 18 days leaking slightly but constantly and cooking nothing was left...

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Maybe a fuel bladder instead, for passages? Jerry cans (canisters) are terrible, except maybe that they can be carried ashore to be refilled, but this is terrible too.

For extra capacity of water or fuel I would again suggest soft bladders instead of jerry cans.

The soft bladders can be put into a difficultly shaped storage space onboard where a jerry can won't fit. They come in multiple different shapes even including triangles. They can also just be put on deck or in the cockpit for extra long range when necessary.

After they can be stored flat and mostly disappear. Jerry cans don't, and/or still take up a lot of space when unused. There are collapsible jerry cans available though, which would be better if they are only for occasional/emergency use.

So I would suggest bladders + 1 collapsible jerry can for diesel + 1 collapsible jerry can for water just in case you really need to carry them from ashore in a location where you can't get to a dock.

Otherwise that TRT looks pretty cool for a performance interested sailor and it seems like a lot of boat for the money.

As you said, add a big hard bimini for weather protection, rain collection, and mounting solar panels and you have a pretty nice overall package.

[owly]

The Gemini has the liability of a narrower beam, which is an issue as far as stability. In making ocean passages, you can be hit by almost any kind of weather, and the idea that you can outrun it is pretty much a fantasy. If you have access to enough information soon enough, you might be able to put yourself on the "safe side". Beam is critical... within reason. Of course seamanship is critical, but when sailing short handed, (or not), it is easy to be caught with too much canvas up....... It's called human error. Not much comfort if you are clinging to in inverted cat. Running before the storm, is where most cats get into trouble..... a hull burying in the back of a wave, and a diagonal cartwheel. The solid forward deck is a pure liability here.... a scoop / brake, exacerbating the problem. The FP 32 has very good beam, good bridge deck clearance, and an open bow with netting. It is also a fast boat. As a solo sailor I would much rather be crossing the Tasman on an FP32 than a Gemini when hit by one of those infamous storms. I'd be comfortable leaving Minnerva for Bay of Islands, knowing I could get there fast, and if I didn't, I had a boat that I could trust to take care of me. Likewise Biscay, or the Indian Ocean, or sneaking around the Cape of Good Hope where the Agulhas Current meets the storms from the Southern Ocean creating some of the most violent conditions mariners meet in "normal" sailing....... And of course there is the PNW, where things can turn violent and dangerous at the drop of a hat. I know what I want........ and a Gemini is NOT the boat. I'd take a Woods Eclipse, or a Simpson, or a Wharram, etc..........


H.W.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by owly

The Gemini has the liability of a narrower beam, which is an issue as far as stability....

What liability is the narrower beam? Stability is affected by weight, and centre of effort as much as beam. On something like a Gemini with a small mast and small sail area, but still weighing over 8,000lbs (in old money), it can afford to have much narrower beam than something with a taller mast, and larger sails, and still enjoy the same or greater static and dynamic stability.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by owly

The Gemini has the liability of a narrower beam, which is an issue as far as stability. In making ocean passages, you can be hit by almost any kind of weather, and the idea that you can outrun it is pretty much a fantasy. If you have access to enough information soon enough, you might be able to put yourself on the "safe side". Beam is critical... within reason. Of course seamanship is critical, but when sailing short handed, (or not), it is easy to be caught with too much canvas up....... It's called human error. Not much comfort if you are clinging to in inverted cat. Running before the storm, is where most cats get into trouble..... a hull burying in the back of a wave, and a diagonal cartwheel. The solid forward deck is a pure liability here.... a scoop / brake, exacerbating the problem. The FP 32 has very good beam, good bridge deck clearance, and an open bow with netting. It is also a fast boat. As a solo sailor I would much rather be crossing the Tasman on an FP32 than a Gemini when hit by one of those infamous storms. I'd be comfortable leaving Minnerva for Bay of Islands, knowing I could get there fast, and if I didn't, I had a boat that I could trust to take care of me. Likewise Biscay, or the Indian Ocean, or sneaking around the Cape of Good Hope where the Agulhas Current meets the storms from the Southern Ocean creating some of the most violent conditions mariners meet in "normal" sailing....... And of course there is the PNW, where things can turn violent and dangerous at the drop of a hat. I know what I want........ and a Gemini is NOT the boat. I'd take a Woods Eclipse, or a Simpson, or a Wharram, etc..........


H.W.

Considering you hate Gemini's so much, Have you ever been on one or actually sailed one,
What do you actually own and sail on, ??????
And which Oceans do you sail on,

Of the 1200 Gemini's that have been built,
And have sailed all over the world and including around it,
They are in England, The Med, Hawai and every where in between

Can you list all the Gemini's that have sunk due to all the severe liabilitys they have that you mention,
If they were as bad as you say they are, It would be spread all over all Forums world wide,

FWIW, I have done 3000 Nmiles on my Gemini, All in the open ocean,

My mates friends dogs uncle told me is not good enough, Hahahahaha

Cheers, Brian,