Spinnaker or Code 0

[Chotu]

Fxykty: When is the book coming out? You have done some seriously good explaining of sail choices and reasons behind them in this thread. Thanks so much for that response.

I do mostly follow the philosophy of not planning to go windward, but of course, it doesn’t always work out.

I’ll proceed with the standard compliment of sails.

I have no rig yet, so it’s all theoretical. New boat. I’ve only had heavy cats and monos before this boat which is a very, very light and high performance cat with dagger boards.

[Alistair242]

Yes, thanks all and especially Fxykty. Lots of good info here.
The Leopard 44 is on the heavier side of the equation. Assuming that the stock headsail is a decent sized genoa and you have to choose between one or the other, then an asymmetric spi would be the way to go. And no sprit required to fly it. Just use a bridle off the bows.
But if you can do it both would be nice. As a few have said, they have very different uses.
Let us know what you decide.

[MikeFergie]

Fxykty I have a Leopard 40 and it was not great sailing deep downwind with the standard sails. Like your L44 it also does not have a bow spirt. I bought an asymmetrical spinnaker from Ullman sails in Cape Town for my boat with a sock and over the past 4 years I have the sail it’s changed my life downwind. It’s easy to fly off the bows on a bridal. Easy to single hand control and overall the nicest sailing one can do is with the sail up.

[ewishki]

wow what a thread this ended up being. So much information. Thanks!

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Using a sock on a spinnaker makes it a one person job - set the AP for whatever course you’re on, and if conditions warrant and you’re not already close to downwind then alter course closer to downwind, ease the sheet such that the spinnaker is close to collapsing (no need to let it go fully), go forward to the trampolines and pull down the sock, go to your halyard and lower the sock (if possible, bring the halyard tail forward so you can guide the sock into the trampolines. If it’s just a squall and you plan to use the spinnaker again then don’t lower the sock. With a sock there’s no need to hide the spinnaker behind the main, which may not even be up.

Lots of great info from fxykty in general. I'd just make one suggested refinement to his method above which is we found it even easier if we sheeted in the asym and released the tack line to start bringing down the sock. It keeps the sail closer to the mast on the trampoline, and there is no loose sheet. As he points out, using a sock on a catamaran is a doddle as you have a great stable platform at the front of the boat to work on. Just make sure the sail is depowered first.

And to some of the earlier posts, I think there is lots of value in both a flatter cut upwind sail and a deeper cut offwind sail if they are different sizes. On our Catana 48 we had a 200 sq m asymmetric in a sock (I originally tried with it top down furling but quickly switched to a sock as it was much more reliable) and a 100 sq m stiffer sail that we called a Code 0 on a furler that we used upwind in light wind and downwind in heavier air when it was too strong for the spinnaker. My next sail if I had got one would have been a heavier symmetric spinnaker in between the two in size for deep downwind tradewind sailing.

[Chotu]

Continuing this great discussion, what about a rig like this?

It seems this racing monohull has its entire sail inventory on furlers.

What are the three headsails here?

Seems like a great way to do it for multihull cruising.

[Mark424]

Great conversation.

I have a very large code-0 on bottom up furler, I don't have the measurements in front of me. But I can carry it to 55 AWA, and depending on the conditions I can carry it down to 120-150 TWA, which gives me 90 -110AWA. It has a UV strip, so I leave it hoisted most the time here in the north. I'm looking at upgrading boats in the next 2 years, I would either get something similar or a heavier Asymmetric w/ UV strip that would move my performance window a little more toward downwind angles as I think for long term cruising there will be relatively less upwind work in light air vs deeper angles.

To me leaving it hoisted most of the time is a must-have. I get so much more use out of it than if I had to futz with taking it up/down as the conditions changed. I saw in a youtube video by catamaran Sisu considering Code-0 vs D, he quoted cat Impi in saying that if he were to do it over again, he'd get a heavier weight cloth on his code D with a UV strip. Which makes me wonder about the point at which you transition from a very large bottom up code-0 sail, to a heavier than normal cloth Asym w/ UV strip. Is it even feasible to leave your top down furler hoisted if you had a UV strip on your Asym?

I'm sure a lot depends on the performance of your boat and whether you can go fast enough to pull the AWA forward with deep TWAs. And whether you are willing to sail hotter angles and gybe on long downwind passages.

Of course the other option would be to keep the code-0, and set up blocks to run code-0 + jib in a goose wing config for deep sailing. The nice thing about this setup as Dave talks about here: (Double Headsail Downwind Sailing) is that you can partially reef both sails as the wind comes up. But you have to set up whisker poles. But that's probably less $ than having both Code-0 and Asym on a separate top down furler.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Continuing this great discussion, what about a rig like this?

It seems this racing monohull has its entire sail inventory on furlers.

What are the three headsails here?

Seems like a great way to do it for multihull cruising.

These Vendee boats have structural stays (lighter in weight and non-removable) with lashed-on non-reefing sails from bow to mast - overlapping genoa (lighter wind upwind, moderate wind reaching) and overlapping jib (staysail and heavy air upwind, storm deep reaching/downwind). Storm jib can be hoisted on own removable stay if needed for upwind. In front of the bow (on the sprit) you have a Code 0 tensioned by the halyard (or the tack line) for moderate wind close reaching and higher wind deeper reaching. Can be swapped out for an asymmetric sail for lighter wind deeper reaching. Unlike a cruising boat these boats don't run broad or dead downwind in light and moderate winds and don't need any symmetric sails.

The tech coming out of singlehanded monohull racing and large racing multihulls is totally applicable to performance cruising, albeit relatively expensive.

For cruising, if you don't want to use partially furled sails (as we don't) and you have a performance oriented cat that likes to pull apparent wind forward with relatively small sails (as we do) then this system can work. For higher displacement cats this may not be as suitable as more sails would be needed to cater for a large overlapping genoa.

We have a structural forestay for a self-tacking jib and an inner removable forestay (tensioned with a 2:1 halyard) for staysail and storm jib (replacing the three furling reef points on the jib's original reefing plan). In front of the front beam on a bow pole we run a screecher for light air upwind and moderate wind reaching. We have a symmetric spinnaker with a sock for deep reaching and running if we're feeling lazy. We may replace it with a top down furling asymmetric for simpler handling.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Continuing this great discussion, what about a rig like this?

It seems this racing monohull has its entire sail inventory on furlers.

What are the three headsails here?

Seems like a great way to do it for multihull cruising.

No. It is not.


You are comparing an ultra light flat thing with two heavy tubs being dragged thru the water.


Sails for racing boats and cruising boats are vastly different. A sailing boat is not just a hull with ANY rig stuck on top. It is all about the match between the hull and the rig.


You can, though, steal some ideas - like having two forestays rather than one. Or like having sails that furl and drop - then detach from the furling gear and another sail is injected, hoisted, unfurled. The same furling gear can be used to say fly an ultra light upwind genoa sail and a reacher.


Etc.


So this is to say you can use many hardware ideas from a foiling IMOCA, but hardly any sail-types.


BTW You will notice that many modern cruising cats lack a mid deck attachment point for inner jibs - such a point needs adequate counter-force below the deck and many cats do not have any fore deck.



b.

[smj]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

No. It is not.


You are comparing an ultra light flat thing with two heavy tubs being dragged thru the water.


Sails for racing boats and cruising boats are vastly different. A sailing boat is not just a hull with ANY rig stuck on top. It is all about the match between the hull and the rig.


You can, though, steal some ideas - like having two forestays rather than one. Or like having sails that furl and drop - then detach from the furling gear and another sail is injected, hoisted, unfurled. The same furling gear can be used to say fly an ultra light upwind genoa sail and a reacher.


Etc.


So this is to say you can use many hardware ideas from a foiling IMOCA, but hardly any sail-types.


BTW You will notice that many modern cruising cats lack a mid deck attachment point for inner jibs - such a point needs adequate counter-force below the deck and many cats do not have any fore deck.



b.

Can’t agree. This Outremer seems to do fine with 3 roller furlers, of course I wouldn’t describe the Outremer as two heavy tubs being dragged through the water!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by smj

Can’t agree. This Outremer seems to do fine with 3 roller furlers, of course I wouldn’t describe the Outremer as two heavy tubs being dragged through the water!
Attachment 223951

Just that an Outremer is not an average cruising cat. Note the center pod. Then think of FP, Lagoons and their sort. Those are typical cruising cats.


Although, looking back, the old Outremers seemed more racy than the new ones. I think the new ones are a bit too Lagoonish.


Look at Marsaudon cats - they seem to be today where the old Outremers were in their time - at the outer, sharp edge, of the cruising cat territory, eh?



Marsaudon Composites - Shipyard - Lorient - TS5



It is good to disagree as only this moves the discussion forward!


barnakiel

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Just that an Outremer is not an average cruising cat. Note the center pod. Then think of FP, Lagoons and their sort. Those are typical cruising cats.


Although, looking back, the old Outremers seemed more racy than the new ones. I think the new ones are a bit too Lagoonish.


Look at Marsaudon cats - they seem to be today where the old Outremers were in their time - at the outer, sharp edge, of the cruising cat territory, eh?



Marsaudon Composites - Shipyard - Lorient - TS5



It is good to disagree as only this moves the discussion forward!


barnakiel

Well, my boat is significantly lighter than an outremer of the same length. Lighter than a gunboat also.I was asking the questions for self-serving purposes. LOL

I have a rig to plan out.

[Franziska]

Chotu, can we see some pictures of your beast? Please.

[smj]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Just that an Outremer is not an average cruising cat. Note the center pod. Then think of FP, Lagoons and their sort. Those are typical cruising cats.


Although, looking back, the old Outremers seemed more racy than the new ones. I think the new ones are a bit too Lagoonish.


Look at Marsaudon cats - they seem to be today where the old Outremers were in their time - at the outer, sharp edge, of the cruising cat territory, eh?



Marsaudon Composites - Shipyard - Lorient - TS5



It is good to disagree as only this moves the discussion forward!


barnakiel

If you look at multihulldynamics they show the 5x which is 59’ as being slightly faster than the older Outremer 64. This is based on the specs and not actual head to head racing.
What I’ve noticed is the older Outremers appear to have more pitching and hobby horsing motion than the newer designs, and that will kill quite a bit of speed.
I really like the TS line of catamarans, a true sailors boat.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Just that an Outremer is not an average cruising cat. Note the center pod. Then think of FP, Lagoons and their sort. Those are typical cruising cats.


Although, looking back, the old Outremers seemed more racy than the new ones. I think the new ones are a bit too Lagoonish.


Look at Marsaudon cats - they seem to be today where the old Outremers were in their time - at the outer, sharp edge, of the cruising cat territory, eh?



Marsaudon Composites - Shipyard - Lorient - TS5



It is good to disagree as only this moves the discussion forward!


barnakiel

Hey b, I had made the point that the multiple furlers system may not be appropriate for heavier types of cats. Chotu was asking for his relatively light and performance-oriented cat.