Spinnaker or Code 0

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by smj

Can’t agree. This Outremer seems to do fine with 3 roller furlers, of course I wouldn’t describe the Outremer as two heavy tubs being dragged through the water!
Attachment 223951

I don’t envy the new generation Outremers much (those tillers, oh yes, I do lust after them), but I do wish our boat had a structural catwalk - it would have made our cutter conversion so much easier.



Hobby horsing? Not much, but I can see how the wider, squared-off sterns of the new generation would help dampen the movement. More drag if loaded?

[toolbar]

Hi fxykty,

a little bit of thread drift here, but I have a few questions about your self-tacking-setup...

I think the classic-generation Outremers have a rigg with a forward jumper in addition to spreaders? Don't they interfere with the self-tacking jib? Do you have a straight or a bend track?

I have a 140% genoa on my cat and would like to switch to a self-tacker. But I am not sure, if the jib won't get stuck on my forward jumpers during every tack, because the sheet is never eased with a bent track.

Paul

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by toolbar

Hi fxykty,



a little bit of thread drift here, but I have a few questions about your self-tacking-setup...



I think the classic-generation Outremers have a rigg with a forward jumper in addition to spreaders? Don't they interfere with the self-tacking jib? Do you have a straight or a bend track?



I have a 140% genoa on my cat and would like to switch to a self-tacker. But I am not sure, if the jib won't get stuck on my forward jumpers during every tack, because the sheet is never eased with a bent track.



Paul

Yes, we do have a forward strut on each of our two sets of spreaders. The self-tacking jib doesn’t ever get caught on them (only overlap is with the top one and only a bit of leech). Our jib is about 95% of the foretriangle area and hollow in the upper leach. We cut the staysail short to avoid any hassles with the upper strut.

However we do have a straight track and the jib does get stuck on the centreline during tacks. That’s actually OK as we leave it to backwind to push the bows over. Easing the sheet about 1m (2:1, so half the movement at the clew) allows the sail to come all the way across and provides a fuller sail to power out of the tack. A bit of a hassle but not so much that we want to change the track.

[smj]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I don’t envy the new generation Outremers much (those tillers, oh yes, I do lust after them), but I do wish our boat had a structural catwalk - it would have made our cutter conversion so much easier.

Attachment 223968

Hobby horsing? Not much, but I can see how the wider, squared-off sterns of the new generation would help dampen the movement. More drag if loaded?

The hobby horsing/pitching was something I observed watching some of the Outremer Cups on YouTube......I mean that does make an expert right? [emoji23][emoji23]
But seriously, I would feel lucky if I owned any year or model Outremer.

[Sparx]

I had two recent experiences that have me thinking about adding a screecher.

1) There were a few times thus past week I thought about flying the asymmetrical but choose not to. Sometimes the wind speed was at the upper edge for this big sail. Sometimes the wind angle was just high enough that the increased boat speed would move apparent wind forward enough to make flying the asymmetric challeging. Sometimes it was just to much trouble to pull the sock up on deck and rig. A smaller and flatter sail rigged in a furler would have been good in each of these situations.

2) Running deep in a breeze with the big flat top main reefed I pulled the boat up to about 100 AWA where the fractional jib powered up. As the boat accelerated I was able to bear off to about 140 TWA powered up with apparent wind in the jib. Eventually the boat would fall into the trough and we would head up to accelerate back up to surfing speed and bear off again. We clicked off miles this way. This had me realizing that that even running at cruising weight this boat can take advantage of pushing the apparent wind forward to make speed downwind. It seems reasonable a screecher with more area than the jib but less than the huge asymmetrical would fill out the sail plan nicely on those days with more modest wind.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Sparx

I had two recent experiences that have me thinking about adding a screecher.

1) There were a few times thus past week I thought about flying the asymmetrical but choose not to. Sometimes the wind speed was at the upper edge for this big sail. Sometimes the wind angle was just high enough that the increased boat speed would move apparent wind forward enough to make flying the asymmetric challeging. Sometimes it was just to much trouble to pull the sock up on deck and rig. A smaller and flatter sail rigged in a furler would have been good in each of these situations.

2) Running deep in a breeze with the big flat top main reefed I pulled the boat up to about 100 AWA where the fractional jib powered up. As the boat accelerated I was able to bear off to about 140 TWA powered up with apparent wind in the jib. Eventually the boat would fall into the trough and we would head up to accelerate back up to surfing speed and bear off again. We clicked off miles this way. This had me realizing that that even running at cruising weight this boat can take advantage of pushing the apparent wind forward to make speed downwind. It seems reasonable a screecher with more area than the jib but less than the huge asymmetrical would fill out the sail plan nicely on those days with more modest wind.

Evaluate whether you want a screecher or a Code 0. The screecher is for light air upwind when your white sail genoa/jib does not generate enough power - for us that’s under 6 knots TWS. The upper limit for the sail is 15 knots AWS, which happens at about 8 knots TWS. We keep the sail under that AWS limit for reaching, so we rarely have it up in anymore than 15 knots TWS unless running deep. To build it strong enough for heavier winds would make it too heavy for the light winds when we really need it. But it certainly provides plenty of power even in light air reaching.

A Code 0 will not go close hauled, so can be built heavier and go to higher wind speeds. It’s happy place is 60-80* AWA. From the two use cases you pointed out it looks like this is the sail you need more.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Sparx

...Sometimes it was just to much trouble to pull the sock up on deck and rig. A smaller and flatter sail rigged in a furler would have been good in each of these situations.

2) Running deep in a breeze with the big flat top main reefed I pulled the boat up to about 100 AWA where the fractional jib powered up. As the boat accelerated I was able to bear off to about 140 TWA powered up with apparent wind in the jib...

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and rig that downwind sail. I know, it's hot and tiring, and you just don't want to go to the effort, but it's always rewarding. Keeping simpler is worth while, no sock, no furler. Just tack, sheet, halyard, set.

2. Just what kind of boat speed and VMG to the downwind direction can you make scalloping up and down to TWA of 140 in a breeze?

We don't have a multi but we find that a bigger, fuller sail at 150 TWA or deeper, gives better VMG when the wind is up.

[jmh2002]

Here's an article that just popped up. It's not speciifcally multihull related but it does cover the basic theories and may still be of interest:

https://www.yachtingworld.com/gear-r...ossings-127727

There is also this quote, which may well apply to heavier cruising cats too:

...the Oyster 575, has maximum VMG at true wind angles of 160-180°, especially when fully loaded with water, fuel, food and spares at the start of an ocean passage.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and rig that downwind sail. I know, it's hot and tiring, and you just don't want to go to the effort, but it's always rewarding. Keeping simpler is worth while, no sock, no furler. Just tack, sheet, halyard, set.

2. Just what kind of boat speed and VMG to the downwind direction can you make scalloping up and down to TWA of 140 in a breeze?

We don't have a multi but we find that a bigger, fuller sail at 150 TWA or deeper, gives better VMG when the wind is up.

We have found the deep angles frustrating in our 38' waterline cat running on jib and main. In moderate wind getting enough boat speed to ride the waves results in angles that are not satisfying progress to a DDW objective. That is how we came to add an asymmetrical.
The asym delivers the best VMG and we can point the boat DDW to about 15 knots TWS.

In my example from a recent day on the water the wind was upper teens gusting into low 20 knots, which is more than we are comfortable carrying the asym. Conditions were just right to scallop away with main and jib down to 140 TWA. The light we were trying to round was close to 140 TWA so there was no jibing.

I read about lighter cruising cats being able to ride the apparent wind to deep angles, but my example was the first occasion I could demonstrate the concept over a sustained period. With proof of concept I was mulling that there might be a place for a code 0 sail on a furler, smaller and heavier than the spinnaker. Also note that i am thinking a sail on a furler might get used more often because it is easy to furl and unfurl.

Overall I like the simplicity of the jib, main, and asymmetric sail plan. It covers the majority of sailing situations. I find myself contemplating the merits of adding a code 0 on a furler mounted on the prodder for a certain range of conditions, wondering "is it worth it".

[Joli]

Your down wind sail plan will depend greatly on the polars for your boat. If they are heart shaped you'll need assy kites and won't be sailing ddw. If they're flat along the bottom then you will be sailing ddw and will need a method of projecting sail area, (or a pole or another hull).

We sail ddw but are also fortunate to be able to pull our awa 40~50 degrees when deep in lighter breezes. Sailing 150 twa in 15 true we see 6~8 aws at around 100 awa and make about 9 knots with an AP assy. As the breeze comes on we go back to white sails and pole out a jib. If it's rolly well head up from ddw to stabilize the boat and stop the rolling.

Looking at your polars is a good start.

[toolbar]

Hi fxykty,

thanks for the clarification wrt your self-tacker. I spoke to another classic Outremer owner today, and I guess that this should work on my cat as well.

Could you please tell me, what size of a track you have on your boat?

Paul

[Factor]

If you have a cat with daggerboards, you can use leeway to advantage, - boards up, use screecher, get up from DDW and let boat slide sideways, its often the best VMG you will get, particularly in light winds.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Factor

If you have a cat with daggerboards, you can use leeway to advantage, - boards up, use screecher, get up from DDW and let boat slide sideways, its often the best VMG you will get, particularly in light winds.

It is stuff like this that makes POLAR's so difficult to interpret. The board adds another dimension to the sail combination and sea state, the variations are endless.

[Yihang]

I hardly ever see outremers fly an asymmetrical spinnaker and almost never a symmetrical spinnaker. Is this because due to their speed the apparent wind is nearly always forward enough to fly a big code D instead?

My understanding is the code D is just a trade name for a fuller code zero made from a light material. Advantage of a code D for downwind would be it uses the same bottom up furler which can be shared with a heavier, flatter upwind code zero. A top down furler for an AS would need an adapter or separate drum.

I've seen people tack a big code D to the windward hull to fly it more like an AS. Seen in the video.

Best all rounder?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXjs...damFriedlander

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I hardly ever see outremers fly an asymmetrical spinnaker and almost never a symmetrical spinnaker. Is this because due to their speed the apparent wind is nearly always forward enough to fly a big code D instead?

My understanding is the code D is just a trade name for a fuller code zero made from a light material. Advantage of a code D for downwind would be it uses the same bottom up furler which can be shared with a heavier, flatter upwind code zero. A top down furler for an AS would need an adapter or separate drum.

I've seen people tack a big code D to the windward hull to fly it more like an AS. Seen in the video.

Best all rounder?

Well, sometimes even with an Outremer it’s nice to be lazy and fly a symmetric spinnaker without worrying about VMG. We fly ours in lighter winds from 90-180* AWA.