Surprising results looking at Catamaran Performance Numbers

[rexripley]

Originally Posted by Paul L

That sounds a lot more reasonable. The confusion in your OP is that you were applying this arbitary speed number as the required speed for safe navigation away from weather. It seems like you could leave out the passage weather and just say you want a fast cat.

Nope, I didn't even do that. It was a hypothetical meant to represent the constant drumbeat that you must buy a fast boat and that "condo cats cannot sail."

In fact, what I have done here is show that at "fast cat" is not faster than a "condo cat" that has a larger LWL.

So, I haven't decided I want a fast cat.

The point of my post was to point out that you don't need this bifrucation between race and charter boats, and that it is quite possible to have a boat in the middle between them.

The St. Francis 50 seems to be a great example of such a boat. I think the Knysna 500 is probably too. But both of those are not well represented in the used market.

So, hopefully people have suggestions for a brand I might have missed like those two.

[rexripley]

Originally Posted by Palarran

It's useless to look at that chart without the price being in the first column. It's always been the same and there is no change now, low price/comfortable/fast - pick two.

I disagree, I don't think there is such a thing as "low price" boats. But if I pick two, I pick comfortable and fast. Have you got a recommendation? But used, as I don't want to wait 2 years for a boat to be built.

My point is there should be someone who has made reasonably performant world cruisers-- not race boats-- that can sleep 6 or 8 adults.

But given that such boats are apparently rare, a compromise is to get a larger "condo cat" to get the speed you feel you need. A Lagoon 620 has roughly the same estimated speed as a Balance 526. By these numbers the Leopard 46 is a bit faster than an Outremer 45. I'm a little suspicious of the Leopard 46 results though.

A Privilege Serie 5 is about as fast as a Chris White Atlantic 42.

Of course there are many other tradeoffs to consider. A 620 is probably a lot bigger than I want and I still haven't accepted that flybridges are a good idea-- especially compared to a forward cockpit.

But I'm just addressing the performance issue here.

[Mantas]

Why I don’t see Nautitech cats in the spreadsheet? They are somewhere in between the fast and condo and are available in used market.

We averaged 7,2kn in 17 days Atlantic crossing (172nm/day), best day was around 198nm. To go over 200nm you should be going on 120-140TWA and it is not that comfortable compared with 180TWA on spinnaker and no mainsail. https://youtube.com/shorts/4TSzQZG8POw

Sometimes measuring distance/24h is not very correct as you can be moving not directly to your target. I prefer jibing downwind on short passages mostly because it is more fun to sail fast, but on ocean crossing comfort wins over everything else

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by rexripley

Nope, I didn't even do that. It was a hypothetical meant to represent the constant drumbeat that you must buy a fast boat and that "condo cats cannot sail."

In fact, what I have done here is show that at "fast cat" is not faster than a "condo cat" that has a larger LWL.

So, I haven't decided I want a fast cat.

The point of my post was to point out that you don't need this bifrucation between race and charter boats, and that it is quite possible to have a boat in the middle between them.

The St. Francis 50 seems to be a great example of such a boat. I think the Knysna 500 is probably too. But both of those are not well represented in the used market.

So, hopefully people have suggestions for a brand I might have missed like those two.

There’s a Chris White designed 47’ Cat named BRIO listed for sale by Chris White and it’s on yacht world now. Owned by 2 doctors and lightly used for coastal cruising seasonally here in Maine. I think it needs a hard top with solar panels covering it but it’s a very well built and interesting design that might work for you?

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

There’s a Chris White designed 47’ Cat named BRIO listed for sale by Chris White and it’s on yacht world now. Owned by 2 doctors and lightly used for coastal cruising seasonally here in Maine. I think it needs a hard top with solar panels covering it but it’s a very well built and interesting design that might work for you?

Brio is a Chris White Voyager 48. Two 48s and one 45 were built all by different yards. We own the other 48 formerly named Surprise. Here is a pic showing the hardtop with solar panels above:


https://chriswhitedesigns.smugmug.co...r-48/i-x6nq6pj

[jdmuys]

Hmmm, where is this spreadsheet? The only thing that I found in this thread is a screenshot...

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

There’s a Chris White designed 47’ Cat named BRIO listed for sale by Chris White and it’s on yacht world now. Owned by 2 doctors and lightly used for coastal cruising seasonally here in Maine. I think it needs a hard top with solar panels covering it but it’s a very well built and interesting design that might work for you?

While reading through the thread, that’s the first boat that came to my mind. A Chris wait. That’s what the original poster needs.

[TonyMerc]

I think there is another dimension to consider. Maybe one that is every more important than average VMG or interior space. That is how kind the boat is on the crew. Meaning, does the boat have good manners in all kind of sea conditions. Some catamarans are down right uncomfortable to sail in conditions other than ideal. If you are willing to weight your decision to include this dimension then I think you will begin to see the merits of a heavy monohull. I had a friend with a cat. And after the first few overnighters his crew all dreaded any off shore passage making.

[GRIT]

I strongly disagree with that last paragraph. Regards the merits of a heavy mono.

What kind of cat did your friend own?

I owned a heavy, by today's standards, monohull, and now a light cat. There is really no contest here.

The cat always feels like I'm on a floating dock. Sometimes a moving dock, but it always feels "planted".

My wife and I would literally have to be paid to do a long sail on a heavy mono now, whereas we love passages on this cat. There's just no comparison.

I'd fill this page with the differences.

I don't mean to be mean, but I'll bet there are many thousands times more folks who'd be more comfy on a cat than a heavy traditional mono.

I'm sure there are uncomfortable cats out there, just like there are uncomfortable monos, but, I think your generalization is way off the reality.

Cheers, and happy sailing.
Paul.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by rexripley

I'm planning to buy a cruising catamaran this year, with the goal of starting a circumnavigation in 2023, after spending 2022 training my crew (family). I'm moving from a monohull, mostly weekend racing, background.

So I've been doing research on every catamaran I can find, and trying to resolve the apparent conflict between "condo cats that can't sail" and "performance cats with no accommodations."

I considered the possibility that a larger, older cat might be a good solution. After all, the DLR of a given brand stays the same across the line.

So if you determine you need a base speed of 10.5 knots to have the weather routing safety margin necessary, then you can get that with a slow boat -- eg, high DLR and low SAD-- that is just longer.

So, for instance, a Christ White Atlantic 42 has a base speed of 10.73 but is limited in accommodations, while a Leopard 50 with possibly too much accommodations has a Base Speed of 10.65. These are close enough to be worth the tradeoff.

What I realized is that there doesn't really need to be this tradeoff. It is possible to have hulls that are neither obese nor anorexic.

But it appears that the market has mostly bifrucated-- Outremer is making the 55 and Catana is making the 51, which are performance cats with a cruising approach, but they are too new (I'm looking to buy used.)

But I did find one brand that does surprisingly well in this by-the-numbers comparison.

And that brand is Bali. Their hulls are slim (though I'm just looking at Base Speed, SAD and DLR) and their accommodations are clearly charter oriented. But by the number these do well.

One other consideration that doesn't play into these theorxperince but isn't etical discussions is availability. A Outremer 55 might be the perfect boat, but for many people it is out of their budget and not available for 12-18 months assuming they can afford it.

I believe a large part of the reason people are buying charter cats is not just because they can afford them, but because they are available. They are clearly produced in much larger numbers.

Anyway, I have my reservations about Bali and am leaning towards another brand, but they really did hit the compromise on accommodations and performance that most others have missed.

Others here know much more than me with much more experience but isn't there a category known as "expedition" yachts that are rarely used as charter boats. These would be boats that are somewhere in between production boats and something like Outremer in terms of the tradeoff between performance and comfort. Obviously, a lot depends on your budget and how big a boat you want to take care of and manage while sailing. I would think a 55 ft Outremer would be comfortable and fast. So I see your point about going with an older performance boat that is bigger for the comfort. However, the bigger and older will mean more cost and work to take care of and more work to sail.

From my experience it seems like if you break down the trade offs everyone has different needs, wants and desires therefore value each trade off differently. Plus you can break down the trade off's much more than the parameters so far you are examining.

If it was me I would go as small as my wife and family would agree to in terms of comfort. If I want to go fast I would buy/charter a plane or buy a plane ticket. Within reasonable limits in terms of poor performances I would rather take longer to get where I am going but be comfortable while taking longer and more comfortable while stationary which is going to be 90% of the time. If I could afford it, I would not go with a production boat built for primarily 1-2 week charters. However, a lot depends how well set up the used boat you are looking at is set up for long term cruising.

I would never buy a Bali for long term cruising or to cross an ocean even though in a narrow sense their performance / comfort / cost trade offs look very favorable.

[RickG]

Talk to Bali owners before going that route. There are a lot of Balis in the Virgin Islands charter fleets. Stories of their fancy pivot / tilt doors failing on passage are out there. We don't have a dog in the race and live on our monohull in the USVIs. Cats in general would be nice for storage, squally weather, and long passages.

Cheers, RickG

[Augi]

Originally Posted by rexripley

I disagree, I don't think there is such a thing as "low price" boats. But if I pick two, I pick comfortable and fast. Have you got a recommendation? But used, as I don't want to wait 2 years for a boat to be built.

My point is there should be someone who has made reasonably performant world cruisers-- not race boats-- that can sleep 6 or 8 adults.

But given that such boats are apparently rare, a compromise is to get a larger "condo cat" to get the speed you feel you need. A Lagoon 620 has roughly the same estimated speed as a Balance 526. By these numbers the Leopard 46 is a bit faster than an Outremer 45. I'm a little suspicious of the Leopard 46 results though.

A Privilege Serie 5 is about as fast as a Chris White Atlantic 42.

Of course there are many other tradeoffs to consider. A 620 is probably a lot bigger than I want and I still haven't accepted that flybridges are a good idea-- especially compared to a forward cockpit.

But I'm just addressing the performance issue here.

I think you already know that it is not only how fast you can go through the water. It is how quickly you can go safely and comfortably to your destination. There are a lot of factors that go into that including totally subjective factors determined by you and your crew that also depend on the conditions length of passage, how often you will be doing "longer" passages, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I get it. Being able to sail faster can increase safety and reduce fatigue by getting to your destination or safety faster. But I get the sense you are over valuing performance / speed and over simplifying in general what is involved. But everyone has different needs, wants and desires.

[At Peace]

I would suggest that you and your crew do some charters (or even test sail) on various types of cat designs. Doing it "off season" at a particular location will not only be cheaper, it will also be during stormy/squally weather, and will give you a feel for what they are like during a passage. That is probably the best way to figure out what you want to live on. It's all about you & your crew.

[dwightsusan]

Originally Posted by Palarran

It's useless to look at that chart without the price being in the first column. It's always been the same and there is no change now, low price/comfortable/fast - pick two.

In my experience as the co-designer and co-builder of a 47 ft very high performance offshore catamaran, only one of the 3 is possible. Low price rules out much in the way of creature comfort and negates the high tech light weight materials needed for fast. Comfort requires expensive work in mechanical systems and interior fitting out, all of which are heavy and lead to a slow boat. Fast demands high tech light weight materials and very limited comfort in the accommodation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rexripley

I disagree, I don't think there is such a thing as "low price" boats. But if I pick two, I pick comfortable and fast. Have you got a recommendation? But used, as I don't want to wait 2 years for a boat to be built.

My point is there should be someone who has made reasonably performant world cruisers-- not race boats-- that can sleep 6 or 8 adults.

But given that such boats are apparently rare, a compromise is to get a larger "condo cat" to get the speed you feel you need. A Lagoon 620 has roughly the same estimated speed as a Balance 526. By these numbers the Leopard 46 is a bit faster than an Outremer 45. I'm a little suspicious of the Leopard 46 results though.

A Privilege Serie 5 is about as fast as a Chris White Atlantic 42.

Of course there are many other tradeoffs to consider. A 620 is probably a lot bigger than I want and I still haven't accepted that flybridges are a good idea-- especially compared to a forward cockpit.

But I'm just addressing the performance issue here.

Low price is a relative thing...as is comfort and speed.

If you want fast and comfortable in a 50ft cat, expect to get well into the 7 figure price range. Do do it, they have to use a lot of expensive techniques to keep the weight under control.

Not common but you can find some stripped out speed demons for not that much but you lose comfort to get it.

You can increase LOA to gain speed but now you bumped the price up substantially. Realistically, most 60ft cats are not bought by couples for ocean crossing. If they want fast, they drop the jetskis in off the aft deck.