Surprising results looking at Catamaran Performance Numbers

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by rexripley

I disagree, I don't think there is such a thing as "low price" boats. But if I pick two, I pick comfortable and fast. Have you got a recommendation? But used, as I don't want to wait 2 years for a boat to be built.

My point is there should be someone who has made reasonably performant world cruisers-- not race boats-- that can sleep 6 or 8 adults.

But given that such boats are apparently rare, a compromise is to get a larger "condo cat" to get the speed you feel you need. A Lagoon 620 has roughly the same estimated speed as a Balance 526. By these numbers the Leopard 46 is a bit faster than an Outremer 45. I'm a little suspicious of the Leopard 46 results though.

A Privilege Serie 5 is about as fast as a Chris White Atlantic 42.

Of course there are many other tradeoffs to consider. A 620 is probably a lot bigger than I want and I still haven't accepted that flybridges are a good idea-- especially compared to a forward cockpit.

But I'm just addressing the performance issue here.

There is a Knysna on Yachtworld and as I understand it, the owners of Knysna are also quietly offering their own 500 up for sale... I agree tho with your assertion about the SF 48 as well. One has been professionally lengthened to aide speed and comfort.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by jdmuys

fxykty I respectfully disagree: this is no marketing by the manufacturer who has nothing to do with this. Same for Hallucine in 2019, who was crewed by two middle-aged couples. This was no racing crew.

Now of course, both Banzai and Hallucine were crewed by very competent sailors who wanted to push their cats as much as they could.

Well, I'm not going to argue the point about the potential performance of the Marsaudon cats, it's certainly up there, but just a note about the owner of Hallucine.

It is Régis Guillemot, and while he might be in his 60s he is very definitely a well known French sailor who has sailed in numerous offshore races (winner of the Route du Rhum 2002 in his category) as well as being the the cousin of another great sailor, Marc Guillemot (3rd in the Vendée Globe 2008).

So he is very definitely NOT an average mom and pop cruiser... Even his wife says “For him, there is full speed ahead, or nothing!”

And for this reason I don't think his average speeds on passage are really comparable in a normal cruising context.

[Umnyama]

We just completed our circumnav on our 2016 Catana 42. She is fast, but with all the gear we carry and full water and dieseltanks she slows down. 200 NM days were rare. Mind you that circumnavigating along the Milk Run is mostly dead downwind, not the fastest course. I hate to admit, but our average speed overall was 6 knots only. Sometimes there is no wind. Sometimes you slow down not wanting to arrive in the dark. OK, we did 12 knots with the parasailor only, until it blew to smithereens in a 35 kn squall. For comfort we crossed the Indian Ocean with the genoa only.
A Catana 42 is a very safe and comfortable boat. Ours was the last ever built - then Catana started to build the more profitable Bali, for the chartermarket only.
Umnyama is for sale now in St Maarten:
https://www.catamaransite.com/catamarans-for-sale/catana-42-2/

[jtsailjt]

Beautiful boat Umnyama and looks like the rare boat for sale thats actually ready to go again without a refit. With those torpedo shaped hulls and the lifting daggerboards, but with a comfortable looking interior, it looks like she’s positioned very nicely on the comfort/performance spectrum. I bet she wont be for sale very long.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by rexripley

Here's a screenshot of the spreadsheet:
https://imgur.com/a/6IQVPn4

that spreadsheet is flawed on 2 fronts.

1. Charter cats have normally smaller white sails, meant for charterers, however they are made very strong and also upwind they can use larger sails which are essential for their sailing abilities, unlike other boats. SO you should include that extra sail into sail area somehow. Of course one does not want charterer to use that power. Like extra reef that some boats merge in one sail to sail well in small winds but are less efficient in stronger winds.

2. Every builder uses different logic to calculate weight. I know lagoon uses all tanks 1/2 full and equipped with all essentials to sail, including chain anchor etc. Some others do no include even weight of engines. So you have to do more digging here.

Else you will have garbage in garbage out.

Otherwise i agree waterline is the king !

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

that spreadsheet is flawed on 2 fronts.



1. Charter cats have normally smaller white sails, meant for charterers, however they are made very strong and also upwind they can use larger sails which are essential for their sailing abilities, unlike other boats. SO you should include that extra sail into sail area somehow. Of course one does not want charterer to use that power. Like extra reef that some boats merge in one sail to sail well in small winds but are less efficient in stronger winds.



2. Every builder uses different logic to calculate weight. I know lagoon uses all tanks 1/2 full and equipped with all essentials to sail, including chain anchor etc. Some others do no include even weight of engines. So you have to do more digging here.



Else you will have garbage in garbage out.



Otherwise i agree waterline is the king !

The chart uses working sail area and any of the boats could increase the sail area if wanted.
Heavy does not mean strong, heavy can mean weaker as it can put undue stresses on the boat.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

The chart uses working sail area and any of the boats could increase the sail area if wanted.
Heavy does not mean strong, heavy can mean weaker as it can put undue stresses on the boat.

read again, i said weight measurement uses different rules what is included and what not.

Say A and B boats are same weight when ready for sailing.

Stating boat A is 6 T but forgetting to mention this is without engines and many other things is the same as

stating boat B is 8 T as per EU weight measurement standards.

Unwary will assume that boat A is lighter which is incorrect.

Not all boats can have gennaker for efficient upwind work due to insufficient build strength so that is important info as well to be included.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

read again, i said weight measurement uses different rules what is included and what not.



Say A and B boats are same weight when ready for sailing.



Stating boat A is 6 T but forgetting to mention this is without engines and many other things is the same as



stating boat B is 8 T as per EU weight measurement standards.



Unwary will assume that boat A is lighter which is incorrect.



Not all boats can have gennaker for efficient upwind work due to insufficient build strength so that is important info as well to be included.

Please name the catamarans that don’t have the build strength to handle a gennaker.
Never seen a listed weight that didn’t include engines, have you?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Please name the catamarans that don’t have the build strength to handle a gennaker.
Never seen a listed weight that didn’t include engines, have you?

no need to fight. i just pointed out 2 issues i encountered when doing my research so starter of this thread will benefit.

Yes, there was a case of weight quoted without engines. Older lagoons are not able to use gennaker for upwind work as force one needs to tighten halyard is too much for structure. This is only possible for newer heavier models. I am guessing there are other brands that are not that stiff as well. I know outremer can do it though.

this is one example of that functionality of balance 11 polar that would even make cc44 grin nearly 7 kn in 8 kn true at 50 deg true.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

no need to fight. i just pointed out 2 issues i encountered when doing my research so starter of this thread will benefit.



Yes, there was a case of weight quoted without engines. Older lagoons are not able to use gennaker for upwind work as force one needs to tighten halyard is too much for structure. This is only possible for newer heavier models. I am guessing there are other brands that are not that stiff as well. I know outremer can do it though.

Not fighting just disagreeing.
Could you let us know which cat had it’s weight quoted without engines as I e never heard of it.
A heavy boat doesn’t mean it’s stiff and a light boat doesn’t mean it isn’t stiff, that’s all due to design and materials used. Take our Searunner 38 that we just sold. Stiffest cat we’ve owned yet it weighed 6700 lbs. I’m guessing this was due to both design and materials?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Not fighting just disagreeing.
Could you let us know which cat had it’s weight quoted without engines as I e never heard of it.
A heavy boat doesn’t mean it’s stiff and a light boat doesn’t mean it isn’t stiff, that’s all due to design and materials used. Take our Searunner 38 that we just sold. Stiffest cat we’ve owned yet it weighed 6700 lbs. I’m guessing this was due to both design and materials?

it was mainstream cat, sorry threw away their prospects. However I can demonstrate you incorrect reported sail size for lagoon 400.

One pic is what L 400 manual says ie jib size 28m2.

the other picture is from incidences sail maker price list where they confirmed L 400 jib size was always 35m2. So here you have pretty significant discrepancy.

[ol1970]

This is the same market segment we are shopping in as well and I would just add that you should consider the total cost of ownership in your equation. Currently all boats are holding their value very well, but that’s not always the case. A semi custom/higher end boat is always going to hold it’s value a little better than mass production boats. So look at the back end exit strategy as well when you go to sell, or are trading for the new boat. You probably can own a used Outremer 51 for less money than a 45-50’ Bali when it’s all said and done over a 3-4 year timeframe.

[GRIT]

I'll agree that sail sizes, and boat weights are often listed incorrectly. But as SMJ said, you can add sail to any boat, so any chart has to use a certain standard. That standard, of course, would have to be generally accepted numbers, which would be either the designer's numbers, or the manufacturer's numbers.

I would suggest the discrepancy between your two sail area examples might simply be that one is a Genoa, and the other a Blade, or some such. Though it says Genoa on both adverts, I find most people are lazy with nomenclature (my self included). Not only that, there may be an issue with translation, as Lagoon is French after all.

To say there's a fault in the chart, due to the fact that you have larger sails than the average Lagoon, is silly. I'm pretty sure the chart was intended to represent the average boat of each model, as sold from the factory. One simply cannot list every possibility on a chart.

If you saw someone say the displacement numbers were without engines, I'm sure they were simply trying to cover their lies, regards "optimistic" displacement numbers. Even then, I'd be very surprised if anyone would have the gumption to say their boat weighs XXX, without the engines. Engines, after all, are not generally considered "optional" equipment.

I commend you on your research, and testing on your own boat, but your results do not represent the average lagoon. Neither the sail area, nor the weight of your boat is representative of the norm, for that builder. And no matter how fast YOUR boat goes, the average lagoon is not considered a fast boat.
Horses for courses, I'd be happy with a lagoon, but I wouldn't be fast.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

this is one example of that functionality of balance 11 polar that would even make cc44 grin nearly 7 kn in 8 kn true at 50 deg true.

I wasn't aware that balance made an 11 metre model. ??

It doesn't achieve double digit speeds in any wind strength so hardly a quick boat.

[john manning]

I think you should take the advice of Fxykty in these posts. All yachts are a compromise and you have to sacrifice something. Limiting the loads on your yacht make it more comfortable.

My comment on your goal is why are you thinking fast. If you extend your argument to its maximum, just fly to the destination and charter.

I own a heavy catamaran (Prout Escale). I used to try to sail this fast, actually getting to 11kts once. I now sail it between 6.5 and 8kts, for comfort. I have recently bought a heavy displacement 48ft timber yacht (approx 30 tonnes). I plan to slow down even more. With weather forecasting options today you can be confident of the next 7 days of weather and with satellite communications you can get weather updates daily, while at sea, and re-route your course to suit.

Is your goal sailing or are you just travelling somewhere.