Surveyor declines to Survey Hurricane Repaired boat!

[Knotical]

Based on various surveys that I reviewed during our boat buying process I can say that a surveyor will never guarantee or assume liability that you are hoping he would, they word their report in such a way that it appears lawyerly than simple language. From a Surveyor’s point of view it is impossible to check each and every aspect of an “old” boat very thoroughly, it’s good enough for insurance purpose and it tells you things that need to be fixed in an urgent or non-urgent manner.

[rexripley]

Originally Posted by Montanan

The task of assessing surveyors' liability in the final analysis may be as delicate as chartering the course between Scylla and Charybdis.

You asked for what purpose-- and the purpose I am looking for is sufficient evidence to support underwriting the boat for insurance purposes. I know a surveyor will not make guarantees, but I do want a surveyor to guarantee the information they give me (eg: the evidence of past repairs and past surveys) are genuine.

I am using insurance as a proxy here because I lack the expertise of a surveyor.

Plus if I sell the boat in the future I want the buyer to be able to get insurance for it.

Reading through the legal citations there it appears that any boat that has had any damage at all, can never be warranted for seaworthiness.

If the insurance clause says "won't pay out if the boat isn't seaworthy" and that is effectively a guaranteed escape because of previous damage then there is no way to know if any boat is really seaworthy.

Even a new boat could have damage at the factory that is unknown by the buyers or sellers and not seen by the surveyor. (I've seen some shockingly bad mast supports in certain production catamarans, that were only visible by tearing out the furniture in front of them.)

Originally Posted by Knotical

From a Surveyor’s point of view it is impossible to check each and every aspect of an “old” boat very thoroughly, it’s good enough for insurance purpose and it tells you things that need to be fixed in an urgent or non-urgent manner.

I'm not sure that's the case here, I have examined the boat to the best of my ability and I don't believe there is any party of the boat that cannot be touched by the surveyor without disassembly. It's a nice design in that way.

So is fiberglass and carbon fiber things you can evaluate? Surveyors do check them for water... but I'm not sure they do or can check them for "integrity" beyond the obvious.

So is the rule then to never buy a boat that has been in a hurricane, no matter how limited the damage was?

[bstreep]

As an owner of a hurricane damaged, and repaired boat: We had one of the top surveyors in the business view the boat before repairs started, during, and after. If he won't, he has his reasons. Could be that he knows there are defects and he doesn't want to get involved or screw up a deal, or it could be, like our guy, he's busy and trying to slow down and picks and chooses what he wants to do. As others have said, it's worth a phone call. He might not tell you what's going on, but you should be able to read between the lines. Again, it could be a very simple reason: "I just don't want to". I'm a real estate appraiser. Sometimes that's a very real reason.

[Nav4425]

it's called a refit/repair. As long as all is disclosed, find a different surveyor. The surveyor is not responsible for the condition, just responsible for the reporting of the condition.

[mike mck]

Originally Posted by rexripley

Yeah, I got a response back which was mostly complaints about the design. I think he might be a monohull guy or something.

One is a datapoint. If another refuses, that's a trend!

Actually 2 is coincidence 3 is a trend.
Just my opinion.

[thinwater]

I do refinery inspections, and I will occasionally just decline.

• Something about it I don't fully understand and I don't want to put my name on it.
• I'm busy and it's not straight forward.
• I would have to charge more than customary to a do a good job.
• Often, there are repairs I am not comfortable with. That does NOT always mean they are bad, it just means I'm not sure how to certify them. Again, I would have to put my name on it, and I was not involved in the process. It can be VERY hard to review internal repairs, and even visible repairs can be tricky (surface prep and other factors). Who knows what is under the fairing and paint? In the case of refinery repairs, welding has many details.

It does NOT mean I think the equipment is bad.

[Polski Gus]

If you really like the vessel, find another surveyor that is experienced in hull & structure surveys. There are various reasons why a surveyor would turn down the survey and was expressed above so I personally would let that pass. The statement concerning any "reputable" surveyors would decline is not an appropriate answer. A reputable and skilled surveyor would honor your request and do a survey "without prejudice". Their job is to inform you and render an opinion - you can take it from there whether to purchase the vessel or not. This is a sea worthiness survey not an insurance survey - the surveyor should act as an independent expert in this case and it is their duty based upon their professional expertise, experience and judgement to render an objective opinion. If the vessel is sea worthy the insurance survey is mute.

[BlackHeron]

Find another surveyor. If the gas station is out of fuel you find another one that has gas right? If Home Depot is out of stock on hammers and you need a new one go to Lowe's or Home Depot. If the baker won't bake your wedding cake go to a different baker in town who will.

I don't see what the big deal is here.

[nofacey]

Ya gotta go with the guy that did the interim survey - he’s the one that knows the whole story.

Nothing nefarious in Surveyor #2 turning down a job started by another.

[BlackHeron]

If periodical inspections were done by a surveyor during the repairs then these documents should be a part of the vessel's records. If they are not then there may be something fishy going on IMHO. If the surveyor did the inspections and was paid then he should have given the person who paid for them the documents detailing his findings.

[Lateral Hazard]

It can be as simple as "I am not comfortable with the people that did the repairs.
Keep trying and do not have a timeline. We waited 6 weeks to get our last surveyor in Fl. and it had to be on a specific day.

[edlepera]

I recently talked to a marine Surveyor. About doing surveys on repaired boats damaged by natural disasters. He told me that he has done them in the past. A detail repair log along with photos and videos is essential along with who did the repair work. Unfortunately I didn’t get a card from him. This guy works the Midwest he doesn’t travel much. He told me that he gets his surveys jobs through people who run repair facilities and seek boats. I think you need Talked to your boat guy who did the repairs. To assist you in obtaining a surveyor.

[mcon12000]

Originally Posted by contrail

FWIW, I would make a small bet that I can identify the location, and the surveyor! PM me, if you want. If I am correct, he is a very good and experienced surveyor, and one of a small number of surveyors, who are also qualified, in that area, most of whom are friends of mine. IF so, it is his standard policy NOT to survey boats damaged in hurricanes, in whose repair and insurance claims he was not involved, as he has no way of acertaining exactly what repairs he would have suggested, nor how the actual repairs were done. As a few actual surveyors have mentioned, up thread, it is very difficult to comment on complex repairs in which he or she has been involved.


"The insurance company did the repair" is pretty vague. If they paid for the repair of a clients boat, there will be much documentation in the possession of the surveyor overseeing the work. If they own the boat, and repaired it in that context, it was most likely totalled. I would ash whoever the owner is to name the surveyor involved, and ask for copies of the survey records, etc. etc.



If the seller wants to sell, there will be no reason to deny that request, although you are not "entitled to it". If the seller denies that request, that is a huge red flag. Anyone wanting to sell a boat with a substantial damage claim, will understand why you want that information and will be eager to put your mind to rest.



I would not read anything into the surveyor's reluctance to be involved in something of which he cannot legitimately analyze. And, by the way, it is not unusual for surveyors to be familiar with names of boats in their areas. He may have done a previous purchase survey on it, for example. Just ask the correct questions of the correct people.

THIS^

If you’ve ever participated in a large insurance claim on a typical cruising boat the owner is given a check for something less than hull value. Then they often become the general contractor running the job site. There’s no accountability until a second claim involving the repaired area is filed and denied.

Personally I would walk away from this boat based on what I’ve heard in this discussion barring a pile of documentation outlining the repair process. Not trying to be a Debbie. Downer but this whole post is begging for one lol...

I do sincerely hope this or something else works out and good luck.

[bstreep]

Originally Posted by mcon12000

THIS^

If you’ve ever participated in a large insurance claim on a typical cruising boat the owner is given a check for something less than hull value. Then they often become the general contractor running the job site. There’s no accountability until a second claim involving the repaired area is filed and denied.

Um. Absolutely, NOT TRUE. How do I know? Because what you've just said, is our boat. Exactly. Yup. We became the "General Contractor". $236K on a boat now insured for $225K. HOWEVER. We had our surveyor involved at every step. And our surveyor is extremely - I mean EXTREMELY - well respected in the industry. He knew the contractors, he knew the workers. But yeah, when you spend that much money, there are multiple companies involved. And, hell yes, I'd pay $250K for our boat. Because I know what was done, it was very well documented AND we did a whole bunch of other work on the boat that wasn't covered by insurance.

Such as: What the hell, it's empty, let's replace all of the thru hulls, replumb the boat, redo the HVAC, replace the refrigeration/freezer, replace exhausts, bring ALL instrumentation up to current specs, buy new sails, buy a new dinghy. Poo poo all you want. Our boat was cosmetically damaged (our neighbor's rig failed and took down everything except the mast). The work done was really outstanding, and it shows in our survey.

[mcon12000]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Um. Absolutely, NOT TRUE. How do I know? Because what you've just said, is our boat. Exactly. Yup. We became the "General Contractor". $236K on a boat now insured for $225K. HOWEVER. We had our surveyor involved at every step. And our surveyor is extremely - I mean EXTREMELY - well respected in the industry. He knew the contractors, he knew the workers. But yeah, when you spend that much money, there are multiple companies involved. And, hell yes, I'd pay $250K for our boat. Because I know what was done, it was very well documented AND we did a whole bunch of other work on the boat that wasn't covered by insurance.

Such as: What the hell, it's empty, let's replace all of the thru hulls, replumb the boat, redo the HVAC, replace the refrigeration/freezer, replace exhausts, bring ALL instrumentation up to current specs, buy new sails, buy a new dinghy. Poo poo all you want. Our boat was cosmetically damaged (our neighbor's rig failed and took down everything except the mast). The work done was really outstanding, and it shows in our survey.

I don’t doubt at the dollar amount your claim hit that a surveyor was involved and the repairs where documented. The OP’s boat was not repaired and surveyed or he would have been presented that information. I just spent three months in a yard and I stand by my statement. I also agree with the second part of your statement but the OP can’t seem to get a survey or documentation in this case to demonstrate what was repaired or replaced.

Most of the time the check is handed to the owner of the vessel not a repair facility. Point being if you hand $6000 to the owner of a boat that needed cosmetic repairs they are likely to do the repairs themselves and spend the savings on other items.