The Best Time Of The Year To Buy a used Catamaran

[poseidon2027]

Originally Posted by Phil_Fr17

… And there will be “new”, modern boats (2021-2022-2023), often designed for charter and because of charter, certainly very worn by this intensive use and not necessarily very well maintained.
We may have lived through a "golden age" of second-hand boats...
I'm not sure that a current FP will be as dashing in 5 years as a FP from the 2000s like the Lavezzi generation (apart from the osmosis problem), Belize, Bahia, the same for the old Nautitech or Lagoon.

So you're saying you think the newer FPs, Lagoons etc. wont be as good in 5 years vs. their older boats like the Lavezzi, Belize, Bahia etc.? So are you saying their quality has gone down recently?

I was thinking quality was improving and a lot of these newer boats being purchased were for cruising more than putting into charter fleets, since that's the fad at the moment. My thinking was that in 5ish years the fad will have wound down and there would be excess boats available.

The FP Isla 40 is currently at the top of my list (unless my fortunes take a turn for the better) so I was really hoping to find a used cruiser boat when the time comes. I would definitely not buy any ex-charter boats. Only cruiser boats or new.

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by poseidon2027

I'm looking to buy in 2028-29, I'm hoping by then all these cats that are currently oversold with long wait times will be back in the market by then. Feels like every builder, big or small, are completely filled up for years to come. I just don't see how that will be sustainable. All these people buying now to only pick up in 2-3 years may realize cruising isn't for them or they did enough and will be ready to sell. So basically, it seems like in 5-6 years there's going to be an excess of cats out there. Or maybe its wishful thinking since it's my timeframe lol.

The first sailing cats were pretty godawful and overpriced. It took a LONG time for them to be accepted at all. 10 years ago if you posted here about bluewatering a cat everyone would have laughed at you.. And youd get less living room per foot than a nice monohull.
And the Prices!! You can get a monohull for 10-20k you couldnt get for maybe double that then. Cats are mainstream now with more built than ever i have a feeling you'll be able to get a boat i cant dream of now fairly cheap then. Heck im looking at huge Juneau's and Beneteau's now for 40-100k now (as backups) you couldnt have touched 10 years ago . I think your plan is brilliant

[goboatingnow]

Good luck predicting 5-7 out. Warren buffet can’t do that

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Good luck predicting 5-7 out. Warren buffet can’t do that

Agree 100%.

In the past 5-7 years we have seen IRMA, MARIA, COVID, RUSSIA attacking Ukraine, supply chain issues..... What comes next? China invading Taiwan? Next Hurrican in caribean destroing 250 vessels? Inflation sky rocket?

All of this incidents had strong impact on sailing vessel prices. Temporarily in one way, and long term in the other way...

No way anyone can predict any direction at the moment...

John

[Phil_Fr17]

Originally Posted by poseidon2027

So you're saying you think the newer FPs, Lagoons etc. wont be as good in 5 years vs. their older boats like the Lavezzi, Belize, Bahia etc.? So are you saying their quality has gone down recently?

I was thinking quality was improving and a lot of these newer boats being purchased were for cruising more than putting into charter fleets, since that's the fad at the moment. My thinking was that in 5ish years the fad will have wound down and there would be excess boats available.

The FP Isla 40 is currently at the top of my list (unless my fortunes take a turn for the better) so I was really hoping to find a used cruiser boat when the time comes. I would definitely not buy any ex-charter boats. Only cruiser boats or new.

The best way for you to get an idea would be to visit an old boat and a new one at a boat show, for example. But to visit it from top to bottom, including under the foredeck, the engine compartment(s), inspect the bilge (something I always do if a boat interests me).


There you would see that (for example) the sampling is reduced to critical points, the cleats are simply bolted through the deck with no reinforcement shims and layers of fiber plus resin, the furniture is pieced wood with angles sharp and sometimes hurtful or dangerous (Neel), that the structural reinforcements are present or absent depending on the model and its evolution (from one show to another...) for reasons of cost and labor and that all the modern boat are to match now, beautiful, a house on the water with a swimming pool that is pleasant to see, but that it is no longer really made to face changing weather without problems (and increasingly difficult to forecast). In short, made for use restricted to sailing, the engine being there to help when sailing with an increasingly high center of the sail and a boat that looks more and more like a three-storey building.


Yes, the quality has increased, the materials have evolved, the technologies too, but at the same time we have offered so many more things, comfort, useful or useless (and very expensive) options to the consumer that these boats have become obese and are consumables amortized in 5 years by charter companies at the rate of 6 or 8 people per boat (an Isla40 can do it all the more so in the tropics, the EC that it does not go far from the coast) and for 6 months a year minimum.


When you think that a boat now - at least in France - is sold without launching, without anti-fouling, without launching crane, with very low quality sails, quality running rigging and a minimum fittings, without mandatory safety equipment and that all these necessary things are sold as options by the factory or the dealer on the pretext that you "can" choose the brand of your anti-fouling (which is false) or the quality of its safety equipment, fittings or sails, that it necessarily requires a crane and lots of other necessary things sold very expensive as an option, I find that we are walking on our heads. Rare are the brands selling 'turnkey', the option being the norm for a long time.


Regarding the FP Isla 40, it all depends on what you want to use it for.


I know at least two couples who, departing from France, sold their FP 45 bought new and very well equipped when they arrived in the Caribbean Arc after having suffered various problems with water in the engine compartment or hulls, problems of rudder, of engine and fittings to buy a 'serious' boat, built for a round the world trip in the tropics, as is now commonly done. So they took out two big checks, one for the first FP 45, the other to make up for the purchase of the second boat (not counting the expenses for the mandatory maintenance stops, so marinas, waiting for technicians for repairs, anxiety about leaving, plane journey, etc.). They have money... Good for them.

Concerning charters, it's a bet, sometimes you come across boat sold at a fair price and relatively 'well' maintained, but you have to provide for the mandatory expertise, especially of the hull, possibly sails and standing rigging to replace or review and make an analysis (at least) of the engine oil ...


Me, I have a lot less money so I'm looking at the not too expensive opportunity, since everything has increased since the C19 and the war in Ukraine, knowing that I will have to supplement to bring the boat back up to standard and that I will have to decide very quickly, good opportunities are currently selling out too quickly. We must not forget either the flights by plane (with or without success) if the boats to be visited are far from my home, which is the norm...
There will also be medical and various training to complete...


It's a long way to boat...
Sorry for my English...

[goboatingnow]

Right now catamarans are in huge demand , so it remains to be seen if such demand holds up.

Charters had a boom year , so have placed more orders and in fact are disposing of monohulls to be replaced by cats

Impossible to read a market out years.

One thing is a sure thing , bring plenty of money.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Phil_Fr17

… And there will be “new”, modern boats (2021-2022-2023), often designed for charter and because of charter, certainly very worn by this intensive use and not necessarily very well maintained.
We may have lived through a "golden age" of second-hand boats...
I'm not sure that a current FP will be as dashing in 5 years as a FP from the 2000s like the Lavezzi generation (apart from the osmosis problem), Belize, Bahia, the same for the old Nautitech or Lagoon.

I fully agree too, it got much worse in quality and sailing abilities. Cats get developed around the max number of berths fitting the given size…if puddle around the med that’s fine but if you wanna more…no. Quality decreased especially of all the gear besides the hulls.
That’s for mass produced cats, low volume performance cat with a huge price tag is a different kind of animal…

What surprises me the most is what customers accept nowadays….Lagoon bulkhead Debakels and worst customer support, Neel 51 unseaworthyness declaration by Belgium court, huge building and quality issues and Neel simply ignoring all and lying on the webpage who really developed it….and they get still sold like hot loaf of bread…Neel 43 was on my shortlist but after that noGo.

And the 2000s cat still sailing well while the the new swimming houseboat condos won‘t.
Especially light air sailing, my Lavezzi with now 7,5-8t all loaded with my around the world gear and slim hulls plus 90sqm sails (12 years old) needs 6-7kn of wind broad reach or with the 8m round sail downwind to move with 4kn, try that with a Lagoon or all of the new condos…you motor.
What I also like on my Lavezzi is all the round gelcoat surfaces inside, easy to clean, don’t hurt if you bump in heavy seas and don‘t get water damaged if getting wet. Yes galley space is limited but all boats are a compromise, I have the best fitting my needs I could afford. Yes interior space of a 2000s 40ft cat is now that of a 36ft but for 2 it’s plenty space…it’s always 1m too short

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Right now catamarans are in huge demand , so it remains to be seen if such demand holds up.

Charters had a boom year , so have placed more orders and in fact are disposing of monohulls to be replaced by cats

Impossible to read a market out years.

One thing is a sure thing , bring plenty of money.

It will continue because of Covid massively speeding up working remotely, starlink enables to do video conferences if you close to shore quite affordable and the side costs like heating/electricity etc. we’re bigger the the rent itself plus governments putting heavy taxing on your property to finance covid expenses that a lot just decided it’s enough, sell all and travel with your home while working. Just 10 couples I know done or in the process doing that and all want or got a cat already, 5 years ago none of them thought that’s even possible for them.

And that all additional to the charter market and facts gobaotingnow mentioned plus shortage of cat production due to all the supply chain issues…
And yes we will hit a massive crises in Europe, Most likely worldwide soon which will affect that but overdemand and shortage is so big that it will stay a sellers market for cats with high prices.
Different for monos…

[cdreid]

Economics isnt supernatural. We dont have high inflation because The Ukraine is beimg attacked. We have inflation because the west is in an economic war with russia and have stopped buying their oil.
And yes the economy is generally predictable that is the purpose for macroeconomics..which the FED uses to affect the economy. They arent raisimg rates randomly

[geoleo]

Well these things are very related. 1. Most cats are made from crude oil. The reisin ,both Poly and epoxy are, the sails are, even the FG cloth needs lots of natural gas to heat it up from its sand silica base . Even most all of the other stuff needed are fossil fuel base.2. As fossil fuel prices stay high so will cost of building cats. So as stupid governments continue their wars on fossil fuels the price will stay high ,maybe extremely high --and so will cat prices both new and used.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

It will continue because of Covid massively speeding up working remotely, starlink enables to do video conferences if you close to shore quite affordable and the side costs like heating/electricity etc. we’re bigger the the rent itself plus governments putting heavy taxing on your property to finance covid expenses that a lot just decided it’s enough, sell all and travel with your home while working. Just 10 couples I know done or in the process doing that and all want or got a cat already, 5 years ago none of them thought that’s even possible for them.

And that all additional to the charter market and facts gobaotingnow mentioned plus shortage of cat production due to all the supply chain issues…
And yes we will hit a massive crises in Europe, Most likely worldwide soon which will affect that but overdemand and shortage is so big that it will stay a sellers market for cats with high prices.
Different for monos…

A tiny number of buyers are buying boats to work from them in my experience of a dozen or more recent purchases. The two “ digital nomads “ I know sold their boats to buy apartments. Hence one cannot generalise about this market. Many countries also don’t recognise boat address as residence etc so it’s way too complex to work from a boat ( and in Northern Europe it’s too cold anyway )

Most buyers as any broker will tell you are typically 60 plus retirees with lump sum cash ready to buy.

I think this work from home is entirely overblown. Where i lived many people age now back in the offices at least 70 % of the time.

Europe is well used to high oil prices. Nothing really new here. Gas is really only an issue for Germany largely due to a misguided decision to shut its nuclear generation.

I see no “ panic “ about the immediate future. Most people expect the Ukrainian situation to be resolved before next summer.

The unexpected of course may occur.

But I don’t see any knee jerk reaction in boat buying. 2nd hand demand is high , new boats production schedules all all booked out.

As looking out 5 years no one has a clue.

[purvisgs]

Originally Posted by cdreid

The first sailing cats were pretty godawful and overpriced. It took a LONG time for them to be accepted at all. 10 years ago ...

My perspective, 2012 vs today has seen relatively very little change in the type & functionality of "cruising catamarans" being built. Even ~1995-2012.. I could come up with a long list production cats that check off all the same boxes as the equivalent "modern 2022" options. Of course condition/upkeep becomes more important but the same rules apply (better to buy one with a recent outfit/gear if possible than spend $ upgrading it yourself, very generally speaking)...

Sure, we're talking relatively low volume & cats have always been $$ to buy into, but cruising cats have been "accepted" since the 80's & earlier. . . I find plenty of GOOD older multihulls out there built pre 2000 especially if you're willing to look at semi custom & low production boats, and search worldwide. Going back even further, 70's 1st generation Prouts and similar (ex: low bridgedeck clearance) options are still good boats for what they were designed for, including downwind/tradewinds passages etc in some cases.

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Europe is well used to high oil prices. Nothing really new here. Gas is really only an issue for Germany largely due to a misguided decision to shut its nuclear generation.

Not really ON topic, but i have to disagree. LOL

In 2022, Germany created only 6% of its total energy production using nuclear power (declining from 13% in 2021, of cause). Natural gas is as well low with just 11% (declining from 15% in 2021).
We achieved that by increasing regenerable resources like Wind/Solar/Biogas to almost 50% of total energy production (43% in 2021). Increasing year by year since Fukushima in 2011!

Germany uses natural gas (and LPG) widley for heating, not so much for energy creation.
Nuclear power is used to create energy. LPG/CNG is used for heating households. Germans are afraid of not getting their houses warm.... The nukes do not heat up thzeir houses, as we do not use much electric energy for heating our houses...

Making the German nuclear exit responsible for a German complain about high gas or oil prices doesnt fit. Germans like to complain. Thats in their nature... LOL

We are not able to control any kind of nuclear power. One year its faulty powerplant systems like Tschernobly, the next year we see a natural desaster destroing Fukishima, or we see a war that threatens the destruction of a nuclear power plant... what comes next?

Another Harrisburg (1979), Forsmark Sweden (2006), Tricastrin France (2008), Belojarsk USSR (1977)???

In school, they told us, this technology is 100% save and in 1 Million year, their might be one incident... Well. i do not agree...

Sorry for OT, but i couldnt resist... LOL

Best wishes,

John

[PipeDreamer]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Neel 51 unseaworthyness declaration by Belgium court, huge building and quality issues and Neel simply ignoring all and lying on the webpage who really developed it….and they get still sold like hot loaf of bread…Neel 43 was on my shortlist but after that noGo.

What's all this about? I would like to know more. I couldn't find anything regarding a Belgian court.

[Phil_Fr17]

Originally Posted by PipeDreamer

What's all this about? I would like to know more. I couldn't find anything regarding a Belgian court.

Check this link : https://neel51williwaw.wixsite.com/cauchemar?lang=en
You should subscribe before to read all the stuff.

Available in French too.
A friend of mine, and I've carefully and deeply visited the boat before departure, amazing dirty job...
I know another Neel of another friend, same problems.


When Neel came on the market I was very interested as I had a luxury charter project. The first ones were very well designed, very well finished.


Afterwards, things deteriorated somewhat, and the factory never responds in the event of a problem or responds on the side, sometimes even saying that it is the customer's fault or that he is using the boat badly.
Apart from that, the concept is very interesting and invigorating. On the other hand, just trying to use the dinghy or secure it while sailing is... problematic.
But not every boat is perfect... :-)