The reason lighter cats are safer?

[smj]

A light cat to maintain the same speed as a heavy cat will have reduced sail area, I wonder if that would make the chances of flipping a little more even?

[CatNewBee]

To be honest, you are at anchor most of the time. Why hurry, when you have the opportunity for a few hours to enjoy sailing on the water.

Speed is great, no question. But living comfort is more important most of the time.

How often do you think are you running off the weather?

We have friends with a performance cat, lightweight, fast.

They enjoy it and are anal about weight. They sail with almost empty watertanks, and are a very minimalistic with everything on board, to keep the weight low. They sail much faster than us and arrive at the next anchorage 2 or 3 hours earlier on a day sail. They even have no outboard for the dinghi, they row - to safe on the weight.

It is like this skinny supermodels, that eat a salad leaf per day to keep their shape. I prefer a steak.

If I want some speed, I use the dinghi. You know - cruising and living on board isn't all about speed. It is about cherishing each moment, enjoying the anchorage, enjoying the sailing, enjoying playing, diving, fishing, socializing, even overnight passages... We are not in a hurry.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

To be honest, you are at anchor most of the time. Why hurry, when you have the opportunity for a few hours to enjoy sailing on the water.

Speed is great, no question. But living comfort is more important most of the time.

How often do you think are you running off the weather?

We have friends with a performance cat, lightweight, fast.

They enjoy it and are anal about weight. They sail with almost empty watertanks, and are a very minimalistic with everything on board, to keep the weight low. They sail much faster than us and arrive at the next anchorage 2 or 3 hours earlier on a day sail. They even have no outboard for the dinghi, they row - to safe on the weight.

It is like this skinny supermodels, that eat a salad leaf per day to keep their shape. I prefer a steak.

If I want some speed, I use the dinghi. You know - cruising and living on board isn't all about speed. It is about cherishing each moment, enjoying the anchorage, enjoying the sailing, enjoying playing, diving, fishing, socializing, even overnight passages... We are not in a hurry.

If that is your preference hopefully you bought a boat that suits your needs. Others put a higher priority on sailing performance and less on the livability, hopefully they buy a boat that suits their needs.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

To be honest, you are at anchor most of the time. Why hurry, when you have the opportunity for a few hours to enjoy sailing on the water.

Speed is great, no question. But living comfort is more important most of the time.

How often do you think are you running off the weather?

We have friends with a performance cat, lightweight, fast.

They enjoy it and are anal about weight. They sail with almost empty watertanks, and are a very minimalistic with everything on board, to keep the weight low. They sail much faster than us and arrive at the next anchorage 2 or 3 hours earlier on a day sail. They even have no outboard for the dinghi, they row - to safe on the weight.

It is like this skinny supermodels, that eat a salad leaf per day to keep their shape. I prefer a steak.

If I want some speed, I use the dinghi. You know - cruising and living on board isn't all about speed. It is about cherishing each moment, enjoying the anchorage, enjoying the sailing, enjoying playing, diving, fishing, socializing, even overnight passages... We are not in a hurry.

If you keep the LOA of the heavier vs lighter cats the same, then in smaller sizes to mid 40s the liveability of the lighter cat will be compromised. Some people are perfectly happy with that compromise. Think tent vs RV - some people truly do prefer the tent. Regarding weight obsessiveness, that can become a factor. There was a series of Delos videos a while ago where they interviewed the owners of a Catana 43 - a moderately light performance oriented cat. They said that keeping the weight down was a constant battle and a bit of a pain.

But if you increase the LOA of the lighter cat then you get to a place where the liveability is not compromised, other than the difference between living in a 1000sq foot 3 bedroom home and a 3000sq foot 3 bedroom home. Basically the same amenities but a difference in space.

And the key mistake many make about performance cats for cruising is that the choice isn’t primarily about speed! For many, the choice is about the joy of sailing. That’s certainly the reason we chose a performance cat (and a longer waterline) - not the raw speed.

[CatNewBee]

LOA comes witha price tag. If money does not matter, sure, get the largest performance cat, will be fun.

The problem is, LOA increases the price exponentially. Performance too. Both together are a different league.

To have the same comfort and space you pay 3-4 times the price for a production cat. If I would have the money, I still would rather buy a Xquisite X5 instead of a Outremar or Catana - same price, different lifestyle.

[sailjumanji]

We have a modest-weight cat, but carry a heavy dinghy. (Compared to some, its a light cat.) Highfield 340 and Tohatsu 20. It gets around pretty quick, and will plane with four. We also have a watermaker, so usually only carry 50-70 gals water in the 170 gal tank. So that saves about 850-1,000 lbs, and the boat sails better for it. We carry a lot of spares for the systems and motors, to not be dependent on local support. We also don't scrimp on the beer, wine and liquor onboard. You have to set priorities!

[Alistair242]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I will pass on some words from Lowell North (founder of North Sails), who did a circumnavigation on a Tayana 55, but who also spent a lot of time on his son Danny's 40 ft cat. He said that based on the weather he encountered, he would choose a cat next time, a minimum of 40 ft for bridge deck clearance. I carried a drogue and a parachute anchor on my circumnavigation, and used neither. OTOH, neither Lowell nor I sailed around in hurricane season looking for trouble, or in high latitudes during the winter. It was never his or my goal to sail around Cape Horn.

If you obsess with safety, you end up with a crab crusher steel monohull which you have to motor to weather. A cat demands more seamanship if you put the sails up, and a light cat demands a bit more. Any cat can be flipped if you press it hard enough, and its easier to flip lighter ones, but my choice would be based on which is more of a joy to sail.

So true. Not to mention that most modern performance cats are built with resin infused foam core grid systems or other strong, light and buoyant material making them extremely strong, fast and virtually unsinkable.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

LOA comes witha price tag. If money does not matter, sure, get the largest performance cat, will be fun.

The problem is, LOA increases the price exponentially. Performance too. Both together are a different league.

To have the same comfort and space you pay 3-4 times the price for a production cat. If I would have the money, I still would rather buy a Xquisite X5 instead of a Outremar or Catana - same price, different lifestyle.

real trouble is that with water length costs go up exponentially but longterm performance goes up with square root of waterlength.

So optimum use for your sail dollars are the smallest boat that is fit for the job & makes you happy.

[CatNewBee]

... Well you need some money left for sailing too...
If you spent a lot for a lightweight perfomance cat, you have to be fast, before the kitty is gone... A more affordable is slower, but also lets you sail longer for the money.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

... Well you need some money left for sailing too...
If you spent a lot for a lightweight perfomance cat, you have to be fast, before the kitty is gone... A more affordable is slower, but also lets you sail longer for the money.

Very true. From my observations so far, happiest people tend to have smaller & simple boats. Bigger boats seem to induce some sort of urgency, likely to do with $$ and effort to maintain. Even if you have $$$$$$$, out there you are on your own with this large boat and that gets scary quick.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

LOA comes witha price tag. If money does not matter, sure, get the largest performance cat, will be fun.

The problem is, LOA increases the price exponentially. Performance too. Both together are a different league.
.

This is simply not true. It costs peanuts to make catamaran hulls longer at the design stage, if you change nothing else. Adding a metre or even two to the bows and sterns uses very little materials and gives great benefits.

The problem is people's expectations. People expect a certain length boat to offer a certain amount of accomodation. So virtually no manufacturers simply extend their hulls. Which is a shame, because the benefits are real, at very little cost.

One who did was Seawind. The 10 metre SW1000 became the 10.8 metre 1000xl. The boat gained performance and carrying capacity.

And that "exponential " price increase? Zero. The xl sold for the same price the1000 had.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

To be honest, you are at anchor most of the time. Why hurry, when you have the opportunity for a few hours to enjoy sailing on the water.

Speed is great, no question. But living comfort is more important most of the time.

How often do you think are you running off the weather?

We have friends with a performance cat, lightweight, fast.

They enjoy it and are anal about weight. They sail with almost empty watertanks, and are a very minimalistic with everything on board, to keep the weight low. They sail much faster than us and arrive at the next anchorage 2 or 3 hours earlier on a day sail. They even have no outboard for the dinghi, they row - to safe on the weight.

It is like this skinny supermodels, that eat a salad leaf per day to keep their shape. I prefer a steak.

If I want some speed, I use the dinghi. You know - cruising and living on board isn't all about speed. It is about cherishing each moment, enjoying the anchorage, enjoying the sailing, enjoying playing, diving, fishing, socializing, even overnight passages... We are not in a hurry.

Ah yes, "we are not in a hurry" the classic excuse owners of slow boats use.

Ok, so why hoist the main? What's your hurry? Why trim sails? What's your hurry? Why start the diesels (almost every trip) What's your hurry?

You can just drift around until the food runs out.

And guess what? We're not in a hurry either. But we enjoy sailing a boat that actually sails. We enjoy a boat that responds to our inputs, where you can see performance benefits from getting trim etc right. It's actually fun.

And getting to an anchorage DAYS ahead of the slow boats means DAYS of comfort while they're still on passage, staying up at night watchkeeping etc...

And it's not like we suffer at anchor. We have 3 full size queen beds that actually use real queen size matresses from a bed shop, not custom cut 3" foam..... And ours is a massively heavy and comfortable foot thick latex one. A spacious lounge seperate dining, big galley, refrigeration, freezer, plenty of water plus a watermaker, a 2.4m dinghy with 15hp, toys etc.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Very true. From my observations so far, happiest people tend to have smaller & simple boats. Bigger boats seem to induce some sort of urgency, likely to do with $$ and effort to maintain. Even if you have $$$$$$$, out there you are on your own with this large boat and that gets scary quick.

Funny, because from most people's perspective, your boat is quite large....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by smj

A light cat to maintain the same speed as a heavy cat will have reduced sail area, I wonder if that would make the chances of flipping a little more even?

Something few people grasp. For instance, the Lagoon 420 promotional video. Doing around 15 kts in 23 kts breeze, reaching with a huge assymetric and full main, and the windward hull looking pretty light.

We'd be doing similar speeds with 2 reefs in, and the headsail. And with the centre of effort so much lower we'd have huge reserves of safety.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by siggy

My understanding of the responses so far is that light weight does not automatically convey extra safety but does give such a boat the advantages that we have considered, such as extra speed. This does give a safety factor but only if the skipper actively uses it to evade bad weather.

Boats are safer now primarily due to the advances in weather tracking, not the ability to "outrun" a storm. Case in point, several years ago, Hurricane Nate looked like it was several days away from the US then it changed it's mind and it raced 1000 miles in under 42 hours with a sustained SOG of 25+ mph. Most prediction models missed landfall by 200 miles when it was 72 hours out.

If you were 300 miles in front of that storm and you decided to try and outrun it by downwind sailing to the NW and you averaged 16 knots ... the leading edge of the storm would have overrun you in less than 24 hours. You are better off looking at landfall predictions and securing your boat in a sheltered area and living through the event rather than trying to play hurricane roulette and taking your chances guessing which way it is going to go out on the open water.