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riki · 11-10-2018, 23:41

Thank you very much for all the replies.
All interesting points of view: mine was only a consideration on age and no, resale is not my main thought even if priorities in life change and i was wondering if an old boat, after a certain vintage, may become something with no market at all. But yes, i guess that if a boat if well maintained can always be interesting for somebody with a limited budget.
Have to think very much.....

TheThunderbird · 12-10-2018, 00:10

In Absolute terms, she sounds pricey...
Dont fall in love, when buying...

Bill O · 12-10-2018, 06:20

One plus going for the older Privilege is the motors probably have direct shaft drives vs. sail drives. This will save you lots of headaches.

JasonS · 17-10-2018, 10:40

Our Manta 40 Catamaran will be 20 next year. I'd venture to say that she is in much better shape than many production cats are after 5 years. There is ongoing maintenance for every boat. Everyone is different depending on use/abuse, but you can "average" some of the following:

New standing rigging
New running rigging
New sails
New electronics
New dinghy/dinghy engine
New engines
New generator
New fridge/freezer
New xxxxx

So on a 5 year old boat, many of these items may start coming due. You can search and get a good idea of # years for each and the costs. Do a rough estimate and you'll get a good sense of value - it all depends on how much maintenance was done on an older boat and what needs to be done. Be certain to get a GREAT survey and then negotiate a fair price for both. Don't sweat the small stuff - and go out and enjoy your new boat!

Jason
Manta 40 (1999 Hull #49)
Breathe

Suijin · 17-10-2018, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by riki

All interesting points of view: mine was only a consideration on age and no, resale is not my main thought even if priorities in life change and i was wondering if an old boat, after a certain vintage, may become something with no market at all. But yes, i guess that if a boat if well maintained can always be interesting for somebody with a limited budget.

There is nothing fundamentally suspect about a well built 30 year old boat. It’s all about maintenance, how she was used, and how she’s been upgraded, and every single boat is individual in that respect.

At that age a lot of systems and hardware are at the end of their service life and are going to need replacement if it’s not been done already. If the owner has been lax you could well be looking at work and materials equal to the purchase price. Sails, rigging, engines, etc. it adds up remarkably fast.

If on the other hand the boat had been cared for and refit as necessary you could be looking at a good deal. The ultimate question is what do you get for your money, and if you choose wisely you’ll get more for it with a used boat.

Ideally you want to find a boat that has been completely and recently refit and the owner decides to sell for whatever reason. You benefit from the fact that the market will never support what they put into it.

WanderingStar39 · 18-10-2018, 14:11

I agree with Suijin. My boat was 40 years old when I bought her, she's 50 now. She was very well built. and well maintained by her first two owners. Her diesel wants accessories, (filter housing, raw water pump). She needs some rewiring, I've changed plumbing, running rigging, etc. But she is sound and seaworthy. If the owners have maintained and upgraded, a well built boat will last. I expect to pass mine on in about twenty years, and I expect her to outlive me.

Suijin · 18-10-2018, 17:32

I’ll add that my boat is 32 years old. She’s been well maintained and upgraded along the way. About to sail her from Norfolk to the Leewards and I have more confidence in her than I do in a dozen “newer” boats that I have been on offshore. Beating hard to windward in 20 knots and there is not a squeak or groan or rattle on the boat. Structurally she’s a brick @&$%house. All the stuff that wears or ages out has been replaced. The hull will last another 100 years. It’s the stuff bolted to it that you have to worry about.

But a 30 year old boat that’s not been taken care of? Probably a money pit and an accident waiting to happen.

valhalla360 · 18-10-2018, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by riki

I know, but after a certain vintage maybe it's not just a matter of price but to find a buyer, unless you sell really cheap. But my focus is really not on resale price.

The point of the depreciation bottoming out is you don't have to sell significantly cheaper than you paid to buy (assumes you don't abuse the boat).

At some point, the value is in the functionality not the new-ness.

The big question is condition. If everything is in good working order, it can be a great option. A similarly sized boat new, will cost 4-5 times as much and depreciate more in the first 5yrs than the total value of the older boat so even if you have to give it away, you still come out ahead financially.

rabbi · 21-10-2018, 04:29

I agree on most of what has been told about deprecation, build quality and maintenance being the culprit.

But it misses one point:
Even if deprecation bottoms at some age the market may still move on to more recent designs causing significant loss just because the boat or its design is getting old and no longer "en vogue".
Most people interested in cats are used to the more modern, contemporary designs. A cat designed in the 90s is already considered old.

Right now the cat market is crazy. Modern and relatively new cats sell within days at good prices (I sold mine just a couple of days ago, and received offers well above asking price). This impacts prices even for older ones.

Now imagine what will happen in about 4 years when post-Irma charter cats start to hit the used market in significant numbers again: Anything that looks / feels old will be much harder to sell if there is a large inventory of modern charter cats for sale at reasonable prices.
Unless another Irma whipes out the charter fleets again, of course.

The mono market is a bit different. Old monos are considered "classics". Old cats are just "old".

Regarding this particular design:
I spent a couple of weeks on a P39. This is a boat to buy if you plan to keep it forever. Its a slow tank and will outlast any of us most likely. Then its only up to you how much it is worth to you.
Don't fret about market value becasue there really is no established market value IMO.

riki · 21-10-2018, 07:25

Thanx folks, as usual a lot of opinions to consider and all interesting indeed.
That said, i think tha Rabbi with the last answer nailed it and it's exactely what i am afraid of: an old mono is "vintage", an old cat is surpassed technology, old design, smaller spaces.......and when newer cats will get to the bottom price, there might be no market for older cats at all unless dropping the price even more. And even now sometimes i wonder what is the sense to get an 80/90k privilege/tobago/athena/putnamehere of the 90ies when 10 years older cats are very very close to the price owners of mentioned boats are asking. Example, why should i buy a 100k FP Athena if for the same price i can get a newer, more confortable and cheaper Mahe? And in 5/10 years, when mahes and Lavezzis will be the old cats (we're almost there), the actual old cats might worth much less than now.

Anyway, just as an update, i saw some more boats during the last month and i have to admit that with the budget i decided most of what i saw are overpriced old boats so i am changing my plans (again) and probably i will porsue the auto construction way. Actually analizyng the Easy 37 catamaran.

Suijin · 21-10-2018, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbi

I agree on most of what has been told about deprecation, build quality and maintenance being the culprit.

But it misses one point:
Even if deprecation bottoms at some age the market may still move on to more recent designs causing significant loss just because the boat or its design is getting old and no longer "en vogue".

The mono market is a bit different. Old monos are considered "classics". Old cats are just old.

It can happen in the mono market too. Valiants and similar designs of the same vintage are tanking in value right now after having held up well for a long stretch. Part of it is wear starting to show, part of it is the allure of the modern conveniences and amenities of newer used boats.

You can pick up a Valiant 42 from the 00’s for under $200k. A couple of short years ago you couldn’t touch one for under $300k.

john61ct · 21-10-2018, 09:03

Never expect to get **any** money back, a boat is not an asset financially but a consumption good.

Keeping it for a long time means the amortized expense per year can eventually be more reasonable.

If you get **anything** back selling it, that's just gravy, and likely a tiny fraction of the overall money spent.

smj · 21-10-2018, 12:27

Personally I believe the Privilege 39 to be far superior than quite a few of the newer designs in both design and build.

rabbi · 21-10-2018, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

Personally I believe the Privilege 39 to be far superior than quite a few of the newer designs in both design and build.

In terms of build quality, yes. Except for the saggy vinyl liner. Comparing the p39 to the mahe is like a tent and a brick house. Also in terms of agility.

@riki
Where do you find a Mahe for under 100k? I know only of the one in Montenegro now sold.