Thoughts about a 30 years old boat

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by riki

The one in montenegro (asking 95k) and another on sale some time ago on a french site (asking 98k).

Never seen the one on thefrench site, but haven't spent too much time lurking on these websites recently.

I inquired about the one in Montenegro for a buddy looking for a small budget cat. It was owned by a russian, in charter, and was sold including the owning US Delaware company. Obviously ex-VAT and I have no clue what can of worm you open when buying a Delaware company from a Russian, how to ensure the title is clean, no outstanding debts, taxes, etc. Reported selling price was 89k Euro.

That was IMO the major factor driving down the price. Just ask yourself if/how you would do such a deal and how easy it would be to fool a buyer.


There is one for sale in Spain that has been heavily modified. That one will sell cheaply sooner or later.

[houseofcharm]

If the obvious hasn't been mentioned already, like anything at that age, it's condition, not age, that determines price. GLWP and buy what makes you go, 'ahhhh!' everytime you look at it.

[drcat]

I have in the past been interested in P39's and P48's. As far as P39 some thoughts. It is large enough to go offshore, stiff enough, good bridgedeck clearance, reasonable accommodations for 8 but usually limited heads for eight(2 heads), conservative sail area (so combined with weight they are slower than some), overbuilt standing rigging, no core below waterline, engines in separate engine room(not under aft bunk). Some perceived negatives are the exposed helm/ steering position , galley down in hull (some say this is better) and limited heads.
One P39 I inquired about in St Martin a year back had had a leak in the shower sump in one hull and cause massive wood rot and delam in fiberglas. The stringers gave way and stub keel actually pushed up into hull. So something to check. Cat was on hard but destroyed by hurricane.
As far as electronics I'd be less concerned about having the newest given the number of cruisers using Ipads and publically available charting/plotter software. Diesel engines can go 10,000 hours and if yanmar can be partially be DIY rebuilt
There have been several P39s for sale in FL on Craigslist for sub $100K.
Take a look at " buying a cat was harder than we thought" Aug 20 2018 Youtube video for process plus bid vs asking price %s when paying cash.
The market for cats is strong- do a Yachtword search 35' of longer and $125K and under for cat vs mono. # cat listings is less than 10% of mono- so it is supply and demand. Also, if you are married, ask your spouse how she feels about a heeling monohull. Usually it is a negative reaction and that helps to drive the demand and pricing for cats.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by houseofcharm

GLWP

my google-** fails

[Sailorman718]

I just purchased a 35 year old Tayana 37. The boat is beautiful and was well maintained, but she had some problems come up in the survey that I wish I had taken more time to investigate.

Make sure you get some good price estimates for any structural issues that turn up in the survey. In my case, I have one chainplate and knee that need replacement. I'm bracing myself for the yard bill.

The other issues have to do with the Perkins 50 hp diesel, but these are manageable and expected.

Good luck!

Mike
s/v Beautiful Dreamer

[Huey2]

Sold my P39 this year & I purchased a smaller cat. I have two 2005 Volvo Penta MD2030 engines with saildrives, engine panels with gauges left after the sale. We had the boat for 6+ years & loved it. We had the model with 4 staterooms & 4 heads with one turned into a tool room. Great boat.

[907Juice]

I had a 36 year old boat (monohull) that I loved so much, I upgraded to a bigger 33 year old one. I wouldn’t be too afraid. It is all what you’re willing to pay for or maintain. For me, I’d rather save 20k and do all my own maintenance, repairs, and upgrades. I mean, plastic only has about a 1,000 year half-life. As long as it has been maintained, you’ll be fine.

[gmakhs]

i really wonder how stress and fatigue can effect boats life , with the years fiberglass becomes less flexible and more brittle, how this will effect a boat i have no idea , but i am curious .

[CortoMaltese]

Originally Posted by riki

Thanx folks, as usual a lot of opinions to consider and all interesting indeed.
That said, i think tha Rabbi with the last answer nailed it and it's exactely what i am afraid of: an old mono is "vintage", an old cat is surpassed technology, old design, smaller spaces.......and when newer cats will get to the bottom price, there might be no market for older cats at all unless dropping the price even more. And even now sometimes i wonder what is the sense to get an 80/90k privilege/tobago/athena/putnamehere of the 90ies when 10 years older cats are very very close to the price owners of mentioned boats are asking. Example, why should i buy a 100k FP Athena if for the same price i can get a newer, more confortable and cheaper Mahe? And in 5/10 years, when mahes and Lavezzis will be the old cats (we're almost there), the actual old cats might worth much less than now.

Anyway, just as an update, i saw some more boats during the last month and i have to admit that with the budget i decided most of what i saw are overpriced old boats so i am changing my plans (again) and probably i will porsue the auto construction way. Actually analizyng the Easy 37 catamaran.

As others said I would never consider a 30 y.o catamaran unless I plan to keep it forever. The privilege are well built vessels but when i saw for the first time a 39 few years back I though how much design has changed and improved in the last 20 years and how old does this catamaran look. And even if it's a good build we are talking of a very heavy and slow boat (if that matters to you). And the bigger you go the more difficult will be to resale and maintain.
As another poster said, in a few years many catamarans ex charters will hit the market and I'm afraid that the 40/48 (charter sizes) 80's 90's boats now being advertized for 100/200k will worth "nothing" (read <50K).
So no, I would not suggest you to buy such an old boat unless you are "comfortable" loosing big money and wait years until you find someone willing to buy. Different matter if you find something extremely cheap.
Good luck.

[bluenomads]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

As others said I would never consider a 30 y.o catamaran unless I plan to keep it forever. The privilege are well built vessels but when i saw for the first time a 39 few years back I though how much design has changed and improved in the last 20 years and how old does this catamaran look.

Interesting point. But I'd ask (and have): what is so great about the new boats compared to older ones in what they do best versus what they look like. Does it do what you want it to do? Most of the production cats of the last 10-15 years seem to be targeted almost entirely at the charter market. Now that may be what you want out of a boat too, but for me I wanted different things; I suspect many others are the same, but they mainly see ex-charter cats so they become the norm.
The classics of the past may not be open-plan, or point as high - technology has allowed some great changes in structure - but they do the important parts well: travelling on the oceans pretty safely and will most likely stay safe beyond the ability of the human to tolerate. I just bought a 1998 boat (only 20 years old, not 30) and couldn't be happier as there is nothing available now I could find that would do what we wanted to, including at the right price.

[Pendragon35]

I have a 53 year old boat: Alberg 35 built in 1965. She sold new for about $20K with an Atomic 4, hot and cold pressure water and was berthed in Chicago. We are the sixth owner. At some point she was renamed from "Tar Baby" to "Pendragon" and moved to the Chesapeake. She was repowered not long ago ith a Yanmar 3gm30F (600 hours now). A previous owner put a lot of beautiful woodwork in the cabin and wood hatches on deck. He also added a hatch. Someone change from the single point main attachment to a traveler. The previous owner added lots of amenities and kept her in great shape. We are following in that tradition and upgrading some of the systems (she no longer has hot water, for example). She sold to the previous owner for $21K; we bought her for $20K.
In all her years, she has always sold for about the same amount.

Now she doesn't have the same amenities as a contemporary Catalina/Beneteau etc. She's a great old boat though. I never think about resale value, to be honest. What she does is give endless hours of sailing. And isn't that the point? It's not an investment; it's a sailboat.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

Interesting point. But I'd ask (and have): what is so great about the new boats compared to older ones in what they do best versus what they look like. Does it do what you want it to do? Most of the production cats of the last 10-15 years seem to be targeted almost entirely at the charter market. Now that may be what you want out of a boat too, but for me I wanted different things; I suspect many others are the same, but they mainly see ex-charter cats so they become the norm.
The classics of the past may not be open-plan, or point as high - technology has allowed some great changes in structure - but they do the important parts well: travelling on the oceans pretty safely and will most likely stay safe beyond the ability of the human to tolerate. I just bought a 1998 boat (only 20 years old, not 30) and couldn't be happier as there is nothing available now I could find that would do what we wanted to, including at the right price.

You are missing the point of the OP. Its not about what he wants the boat to be or to do.

Its what the majoriy (read: the market) sees when they look at a boat. If they don't see "classic vintage" but just "old" when time comes to sell this will have a huge negative impact on resale value.

Resale value may not be the primary reason to buy, but it should also not be the least important at least for ordinary humans who plan for a life after cruising.


I think modern cats hold their value quite well as long as they are close to what is promised by recent designs. Once their design features are superseeded for a couple of years, they start to just look "old" and loose big time.

[valhalla360]

While there are a handful of "classic" monohulls that hold excellent value, the vast majority are no different from cats in that they depreciate with age down to some lower limit that has more to do with underlying value rather than market conditions...and most of the "classic" monohulls only hold the value if you spend lots of money keeping them in top condition. I see lots of claims about great resale after they do a 6 figure refit.

As far as the general idea that older cats don't hold up well in value...I think it's a red herring. Cats seem to hold value quite well. Assuming it's a production boat from a decently respected manufacturer, it's at least as good a a typical monohull. It likely isn't as good as 15-20yrs ago when used cat supply was much smaller, so supply/demand pushed the prices up but it's still quite good.

Now if you are talking about one off and home built...that often comes with lower resale values from day one due to questions about build quality and oddball features that have been implemented.

[Othergoose]

Our 38-year-old Prout Snowgoose 35 is still extremely sea-worthy and we plan to sail her until we are 80+ which will make her 50+. We just fix whatever needs fixing and we update her systems whenever we can afford it. We live on her for 8 months of the year so it our home. When you have an aged boat you develop and enhance your skill set!

[CortoMaltese]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

Interesting point. But I'd ask (and have): what is so great about the new boats compared to older ones in what they do best versus what they look like. Does it do what you want it to do? Most of the production cats of the last 10-15 years seem to be targeted almost entirely at the charter market. Now that may be what you want out of a boat too, but for me I wanted different things; I suspect many others are the same, but they mainly see ex-charter cats so they become the norm.
The classics of the past may not be open-plan, or point as high - technology has allowed some great changes in structure - but they do the important parts well: travelling on the oceans pretty safely and will most likely stay safe beyond the ability of the human to tolerate. I just bought a 1998 boat (only 20 years old, not 30) and couldn't be happier as there is nothing available now I could find that would do what we wanted to, including at the right price.

You ask "what is so great about the new boats compared to older ones", i answer "comfort, safety and much more" if we don't forget we are talking about catamarans. I don't know if you had a walk into a multihull produced in the last 10/15 years and something of the 80s or 90s: 2 different worlds, and it's not just a matter of design, but mostly space and liveability. You can get the space of an older 40/42 in a modern 36, but spend much much less in all related costs.
Beside that, OPs concerns were also resale related: selling today a cat of the 80s or 90s is a difficult task, and in a few years probably much more: mono and cats are 2 different worlds in terms of aging, and even if i mostly agree with who says that a mono might have an easier market, i also agree that much much $$$ must be spent to maintain the value. So again, does it worth it to get a dinosaur for 100/150/200k? NOT FOR ME.