To Dagger or Not to Dagger ...

[eyschulman]

If you can avoid sailing upwind good luck to you-you can also try to avoid storms and high seas if you can. the odds are that if you spend enough time on the water the situation will develope where your ability to sail off a lee shore will be critical-in such a situation I personally would not want to be on a pigy boat that can't sail out of danger no mater how comfortable or roomy it might be. The centerboard or daggerboard is the usual and most efficient solution to this issue in the vast majority of multi hull platforms -shoal keelets are usually a poor compromise. An f series tri with board has good to excellant sailing ability in such situations while a houseamoran cat with small keellets will not.If you need or want a houseamoran cat at least put some deep boards on it and you don't have to use them unless you have to.

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by saratogamanta

... Our Manta 42 does very well windward but we end up motorsailing because where you want to go is too close to the wind. We run the windward engine to abate helm as a boat in the wind wants to round up.

Bummer. That doesn't sound right.

At about 10 knots true wind speed beating in our catamaran our boat speed is about the speed that we motor at by 15 knots TWS our velocity made good to weather is faster than our motoring speed. In other words, in a decent breeze even if we want to go to someplace directly upwind sailing is faster than motoring and in an "average" (say 12 knot breeze) there's virtually nothing in it. So, we don't motor-sail upwind much. This on an overloaded (sigh) 42 foot full time cruising cat with heavily used sails . Folks with shore bases to off load their stuff or nice sails should do better. Boards make a HUGE difference to both VMG and helm. If you don't have boards your lee bow ends up as your leeway preventing device which pushes your CLR further forward than ideal. Hence the weather helm. Fixed keels certainly help but they are substantially less effective than well designed boards. There is a reason that you see boards on all performance multihulls.

Friends that have daggers (Catanas, Dolphins, one offs, etc) have told me the repairs WHEN they run aground can be VERY expensive!! Most end up leaving both daggers down low enough to protect the saildrive and rudder and nothing more and call it a day.

I've run aground my share of times but I try very hard not to do it with the boards down. So far I've been successful at that. For folks who live someplace especially shallow I can see going for bilge keels (both in mono's and cats). But most places finding 10' of water is not an epic challenge. I'm not a courageous man, but having invested in charts and a depth finder I don't feel that I'm taking absurd chances lowering my dagger-boards when appropriate... I'm thinking your friends may be a wee tad too stressed out about it...

Tom

[Denvermike66]

Thank you so much to those that have participated in this discussion. I have decided to Dagger! I have learned very quickly that there are pluses and minuses to every Cat out there. I truly think the challenges of having Daggers will keep me safer in the fact that I will have the ability to out run a storm. I like the idea that they sail a straiter line than a fixed keel. And I think all in all it will keep my sailing interesting. But to be safe I will keep an extra rudder, prop and if possible an extra Dagger on board. As they say BOAT.... break out another thousand...lol!
Cheers

[YOGAO]

Originally Posted by Denvermike66

Thank you so much to those that have participated in this discussion. I have decided to Dagger! I have learned very quickly that there are pluses and minuses to every Cat out there. I truly think the challenges of having Daggers will keep me safer in the fact that I will have the ability to out run a storm. I like the idea that they sail a straiter line than a fixed keel. And I think all in all it will keep my sailing interesting. But to be safe I will keep an extra rudder, prop and if possible an extra Dagger on board. As they say BOAT.... break out another thousand...lol!
Cheers

I'm not sure they will help you "outrun" a storm, dude! (Unless they have small, 275hp engines inside) They might help you slide down some big waves and avoid "tripping" though.

If you have two boards, you already have a built-in spare. On the Maine Cat, you can also flip the boards end for end.

Extra rudders and props might be a good idea, but again not sure that a daggerboard boat dictates carrying those spares.

Fair Winds,
Mike
~currently in the "exotic" location called the USVIs to for repairs (outboard, not daggerboard)

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by Denvermike66

I have learned very quickly that there are pluses and minuses to every Cat out there.

Yes, it's amazing how many choices one has to make when selecting a boat. The task can feel overwhelming and there is only so much help anyone can give because the great majority of choices are of the "how tall should my wife be?" variety. Having made some arguments for the use of boards I want to make it clear that I believe they too are a matter of taste. Many fantastic multi-hulls don't have them. And while they do make a difference that to me is qualitatively great the quantitative differences in a day's run might not be huge in absolute terms; all cruising sailboats are slow transport and adding 10% more speed just makes them less slow. Too, motor-sailing can be a great equalizer. For me daggerboards make the sailing more pleasurable and that is my only major justification for them.

I truly think the challenges of having Daggers will keep me safer in the fact that I will have the ability to out run a storm.

More often than not storms move faster than you can in any cruising boat. Early action to avoid them (sometimes really early like traveling in the best season) is the best bet on all slow boats. I think it will be a rare day that the extra 20 miles you might get out of your boat with boards will make a noticeable difference.

But to be safe I will keep an extra rudder, prop and if possible an extra Dagger on board. As they say BOAT.... break out another thousand...lol!
Cheers

It may be that like the advantages, the "challenges" of boards have been a bit overstated. I don't think you'll really need to keep spare boards, rudders or props. In most designs the designer will have given some thought to protecting the rudders props and in any case you will have a pair of each. Typically a cat can be sailed with the loss of both boards (to some extent), with the loss of one rudder blade and motored on one engine. I'd keep that money for beer (or maybe a really functional backup steering system).

Cheers,

Tom.

(currently in exotic Hawaii for repairs -- a long list -- but not boards )

[Slowing Down]

Too many spares and supplies on a cat will overload it and be counter-productive to any notion of better performance. Multihulls, especially higher performance ones (the ones likely to have daggerboards) have to be kept light.

[eyschulman]

While the board will not outrun a storm it may well keep you off a lee shore-putting all your faith in the iron horse especially in a bouncy sea churning up all the crud in bottom of tank not smart. good to have a boat that can do it under sail- I recall an article several years back about an unexpected storm that entered a west coat anchorage pilling up breakers in basin- the only boat to survive unscathed pulled up anchor and sailed out - others who tried to motor did not make it-On another occasion I sailed into broad creek chessepeake MD - 18-25K on the nose with steep 4+ ft breakers short interval- a whole fleet of weekiend cruisers where trying to get out including some powerful an moderate sized power boats (45-50 ft)-they where bobbing up and down with props breaking free of water several turned around only the largest made it out with difficulty. My 26 ft tri full working sail board down popped right over those waves at 7-9k - not a comfortable ride but safe and if there was a lee shore it would not have had my boat for supper-Sailing performane is not just about raceing or speed - it is also very much about seaworthyness and safety-Boats that can't get out of there own way in a headsea are not particularly safe. I very much get the feeling that some of the cats being sold fit this catagory-the wise buyer would do well to disregard advertiseing and sales hype and sort out the difference between a big houseamoran cat that makes a good cocktail platform and one that can sail if need be. with some care in your selection of boat you can have it both ways with the right cat.

[TabbyCat]

I am very mechanical inclined and understand that bottom will need constant attention too keep Daggers clean

No they won't. At anchor, you just pull them up and they're pretty much out of the water. The most we get is a little growth on the bottom of ours, maybe a few barnacles. That's easy to take care of. A daggerboard boat is going to draw a lot less than a keel boat. Our hulls only sit 2' deep in the water, so cleaning the hulls is a snap. Most of your heavier less performance-oriented cats with long keels draw 4-5', so you've got almost twice as much depth to dive down on and much more area to clean.

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by TabbyCat

No they won't. At anchor, you just pull them up and they're pretty much out of the water. The most we get is a little growth on the bottom of ours, maybe a few barnacles. That's easy to take care of. A daggerboard boat is going to draw a lot less than a keel boat. Our hulls only sit 2' deep in the water, so cleaning the hulls is a snap. Most of your heavier less performance-oriented cats with long keels draw 4-5', so you've got almost twice as much depth to dive down on and much more area to clean.

Thread is pretty old but ...

I assume you will have growth inside the box when the daggers are up and worst case the daggers can't be lowered anymore due to barnacles in the box ?

[44'cruisingcat]

No, when the daggers are up they still extend to the bottom of the case. You never seem to get any growth between the daggerboard and the case. Possibly because there's a lot of antifoul paint in very close proximity, or maybe because there is very little light, but the barnicles just don't grow there.

[cchesley]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

No, when the daggers are up they still extend to the bottom of the case. You never seem to get any growth between the daggerboard and the case. Possibly because there's a lot of antifoul paint in very close proximity, or maybe because there is very little light, but the barnicles just don't grow there.

I've had daggerboard boats for over 7 years. Never had any problem with growth either on the boards or in the trunks. (but then, I use my boats frequently, too!)

[myosys]

Originally Posted by Denvermike66

Will having dagger-boards mean I won't have to fire up the leeward engine going into the wind?
I will take $0.02 from anyone... can't complain when it's free!
I really do appreciate the inputs!

Well, if you have a heavily loaded cruising cat with 8 people on board, going against a light SW wind with the current against you (let's say 3 kts on the Hudson River,) you will be going backwards.

Depends on where you are sailing...

[44'cruisingcat]

Having now done a couple of thousand miles close hauled, I have to say, I'm very glad to have a daggerboard equipped boat.

There's ony a couple of reasons that we'll motor, or motorsail to windward. If we're in tight water and just don't feel like short tacking, or if the breeze is very light.

[webejammin]

We use our centerboards all the time mainly because seams were always sailing in 1/2 mile wide channels on the river. We also use them when docking in marinas so we don't get wind drift going into the slip, then we raise the boards when at the marina and they stay clean of growth. You will find using a little centerboard down helps protect your rudders and props and helps with the helm