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PJOHara · 04-02-2013, 05:07

Thanks for the information folks, much appreciated. Mark, what would be the hoist/foot of a medium size assymetric chute, vs what you have?

Pat

Mark Johnson · 04-02-2013, 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJOHara

Thanks for the information folks, much appreciated. Mark, what would be the hoist/foot of a medium size assymetric chute, vs what you have?

Pat

Pat, ours is a poor man's sail for sure.
It was a conventional spinnaker for a 36' monohull, that they had re cut to asymmetrical proportions. (We had just gotten rid of our conventional "symmetrical" spinnaker, which required a pole and almost DEAD down wind orientation to stay full). It was such a pain that we seldom used it!

We got this new one really cheep from friends. It is just a bit lumpy, and has a really huge repair from a snag, (easily accomplished), but the overall shape is really good, just small. It is about 3/4 full only in the top half, with the bottom half fairly flat and with a high clew.

It is great from dead down wind to approaching a reach, (tacked from permanent blocks on the ama bows), all the way up to a mild beat, tacked to the Vaka bow. (EASILY as tight as 60 degrees off of the apparent wind) These ama tack bow lines (with snapshackles), are rigged up well in advance, with their shackle ends snapped to the bow rail for storage. They are mostly down lines, and on the 34, we get by with no winches here, (but they would be nice). The aft tack lines are the headsail's outboard sheet leads, that do go to the headsail winches.

DO NOT USE AN ATN TACKER or the like to incorporate the rolled up genny as a tack stabilizer. We tried this, even with chafe rags. The ATN plastic clip on device will eat through the sail cover's stitches on the FIRST all day run! What were they thinking? For monohulls, options are more limited, but for us there is a better way...

For tack stabilization, JUST above the bow rail... We use the tack line already rigged to the ama bow, in combination with a new down line to a snatch block shackled to the Vaka bow pad eye, and then cleated. (With good timing... no winch is necessary on this line).

For a sail that goes this well to windward too, it must have a flat entry at the luff, (not very cupped), or it will collapse when you pinch with it. Ours is perfect in this respect, but the shaping was probably just luck!

I have no measurements, but... The "longer" luff of our asym is about the height of from 3' below the mast head, (leaving JUST enough room for an ATN snuffer), to about a foot below the bow rail. When flying, this puts the tack JUST above the bow rail. I'd say it is perfect in height...

The width is about that of the boat, (once flying dead down wind), and with parallel sides. It flys great, and is both rugged, (1.5 nylon), and appropriate for use at sea, but for inland daysailing like we do more of here, it is too small, imo.

It could be just a bit wider on the foot, and a lot wider in girth on it's top half. This would bump it from "small" to "medium". How much wider, (= fuller), and how much windward ability would be lost from doing this, is a question for a sailmaker. We love ours, just wish it was similar but wider, for river sailing...

At sea, (on a cruise)... we would still use this one, as is. It stays flying so easily that we actually use it, and "almost calm" conditions are rare at sea... where we sail at least.

Mark

Mark Johnson · 04-02-2013, 07:40

Just realized I had this photo...

Referring to previous posts about the extraordinary expansion/contraction rate of plastics...

These TACO vinyl rub rails have 1/4" of space in the middle joint AND each end. On a really hot day, they are TIGHT!

The vinyl rubrail's screws all go into glassed over, "nickle sized" epoxy plugs, made into the rub rail's base board. These screws move all over the place, so NO amount of caulk blobs will take the place of this preemptive step.

My WAG, (= wild assed guess), is that these plastics have an expansion coefficient that is 10X that of the wood epoxy composite structure they're attached to!

M.

Cavalier MK2 · 04-02-2013, 08:28

Hopefully those looking for windows have done their homework online. Acrylic ihas good UV resistance and holds up the best of all plastics outside. Polycarbonate has UV coating and stabilizers added because it degrades in sunlight. If that tough coat has been polished away it is breaking down faster and is subject to environmental crazing as well as the opacity. Being about 300 times stronger than glass it will take awhile to be noticeable but it is well to keep this in mind. It is also made with BPAs for those putting kids into the wing bunks next to the windows if this is a concern. In fact epoxies tend to have BPAs as well so for a barrier coating over the epoxy on the interior paint besides epoxy based products might be a consideration for those with youngsters as well. In a fire acrylics don't put out toxic fumes but burn with a output like wood, not so for Lexan. Acrylic, while more chemically resistant than polycarbonate, is vulnerable to some solvents and other things such as alcohol and gasoline so research before trying the solvent test for material identification.All things to be aware of while making informed choices.....

For lower cost spinnakers a symmetrical works fine. It should be 1.5 oz for cruising. If you can find a star cut which is flatter grab it.

We run control lines/guys with blocks/snatch blocks on the end to each ama bow. The spinnaker sheets run through these then to blocks near the ama sterns. This gives a lot of control.. On a reach the tack guy is pulled down tight with the guy/sheet positioning the leading edge where you need it, even to the forestay, the clew guy is off completely and the sheet tensioned as needed. And every variation in between is available for control. Running downwind both guys can have some tension letting the chute pull up at a angle, instead of stuffing the bows and haveing the sheets pull the sterns up it adds insurance if things kick up before you get the chute down. We sometimes use a guy with a snatch block on the main bow when sailing tight angles but not often.

slowbat · 04-02-2013, 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by md7a

Looking for the story of Brie...

On a summer cruise near Olympia last summer I spotted this pair of amas anchored near Fish Trap, and I have been wondering ever since what was the story of Brie, the boat to which they seemingly belonged.

Must have been an A-frame Searunner 31, homeport in Olympia, WA. But what happened to her?

Know some of the history of Brie, She was an early 1970’s build A Frame 31, build by a cabinet maker somewhere near Olympia WA. It was a pre-west systems boat. The fit and finish was really nice. I do not think it was built with exterior grade plywood. I do not know the sail number. The builder took her as far as SF then sold the boat to Steve Johnston the founder of Heart Interface Co in Kent WA. He was the pioneer of the marine inverter. He used the boat as a platform to test out his electrical systems. This included about 1000 pounds of batteries and gear.

I purchased the Searunner from Steve around 1993. It had some trunk issues and several rot problems in the main hull. I lived on the boat for 5 years on Vashon, Gig Harbor then Bremerton. I cruised it throughout the south sound and San Juan Islands. The centerboard became stuck in the up position from swelling. After sailing without a centerboard, I have no idea why anyone would remove one or glass over.

In 1999 the boat was moored at Port of Washington Marina (NEVER USE THIS MARINA), someone broke into the boat and burglarized everything. All of the electronics, force 10 heater, cooking stove, they unbolted the Perko oil lamps off the bulkheads, they took everything even my sleeping bags and pillows. After this I had the boat moved into a storage lot with plans to build new hulls. Not being able to locate a place to build new hulls I sold what was left of the boat to a guy on Orcas Island named Ron S?, who had rebuild a Piver in the 80’s. His plan was to move the entire 31 carcass to Orcas for salvage. I gave him the original plans and full-size templates.

I am not sure what is floating with the Ama’s or if someone saved them after the rigging and other bits where salvaged. I remember someone posting that they salvaged some ama’s from a rotten mail hull in an earlier post, and they are listed as from the PNW.

It would be a shame if the bits where scraped from Brie, the A Frames, Rig, Wind Vain and Pulpits were really nice stainless.

It sure breaks my heart to see the ama’s. The boat was build so good out of the crappiest plywood

slowbat · 04-02-2013, 08:48

I am not sure what is floating with the Ama’s or if someone saved them after the rigging and other bits where salvaged. I remember someone posting that they salvaged some ama’s from a rotten mail hull in an earlier post, and they are listed as from the PNW.

I think the someone was "Cavalier MK2 " ??

Is Brie your salvage job? Can you add the the final history?

Doggone · 04-02-2013, 11:06

Moon Dog is officially for sale asking $13,500. Jim Brown design for his long time friend and cartoonist of his construction book. Photo series can be seen at yacht world.com type in Jim brown. Epoxy construction with old growth con heart redwood framing. the only other RF 45 built was Bamboo which as well know in the 80's at Zacks in Sausalito and Puerto Vallarta in the 90's. Bamboo died a slow death in Nuevo Vallarta destroyed by the port captain. Moon Dog is a Rare example of a unusual tri. I was a partner in the 80's and know her well. the mast can be raised, the engine can be started and the rot can be cut out and replaced. RF stands for rather funky and that is exactly what makes this boat so special. Jim Brown would love to hear that she sails again. Call. Kirby , Napa Yachts 707-252-8011. I have been trying to do this on my iPad, finally figured out how to post photos of my 40'

PJOHara · 04-02-2013, 14:42

Mark, thanks for all the info, some really good ballpark ideas for dimensions there.
Cavalier, I appreciate the input, that's exactly how we flew our symmetric chute until I blew it out. It was just a radial head and quite old, but worked well dead downwind up to a broad reach. Might just do something like that again if I can't find an affordable asymmetric .

Mark Johnson · 04-02-2013, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJOHara

Mark, thanks for all the info, some really good ballpark ideas for dimensions there.
Cavalier, I appreciate the input, that's exactly how we flew our symmetric chute until I blew it out. It was just a radial head and quite old, but worked well dead downwind up to a broad reach. Might just do something like that again if I can't find an affordable asymmetric .

Our asymmetric, as I said, was cut down from a much larger symmetric, and it worked out great! It just required one or two cuts as far as I know, (we didn't do it). We bought the completed sail for just $450!

There are bound to be similar bargains out there. Our consignment shops on the East coast are full of spinnakers, and usually will go for half the asking price.

Another thought...
You might try to modify one yourself, if it is a real deal and wider than necessary, but not asymmetrical. A standard sewing machine works fine on these, and I suspect that SailRight has instructions on line.

You might also find an asymmetric spinnaker you like, but with a huge "easily repaired" rip, selling for a song. Unlike windward sails, a slightly lumpy surface from an amateur repair, done with sail tape, (sewn on the edges), will not really hurt the sails performance at all.

I love aesthetics, but on spinnakers that really get used, it is best to learn to like the look of rips and sail tape... they happen.

btw... I had a symmetric on my previous boat too, just like the one we started out with on Delphys. IF the best "single" downwind sail, with most "versatility" is what you want... Once you have used both, you would never go back to the symmetric. You can in fact move away from dead downwind with a symmetric, as you know, but due to the apparent wind changing so much with every gust, (once you approach a reach), they require a lot of tending.

This "constant tending" with more "strings n poles", is FAR less true for an asymmetric. We sail for hours on end with ours, and might tweak it every once in a while just for fun, but not because it is collapsing and requires it.

Best of luck with it,

Mark

Roy M · 04-02-2013, 16:06

And tacking downwind is easy with the assymetrical. Just lead the "lazy" sheet forward of the headstay, let the active sheet go until the sail is fluttering downwind, then pull in the new active sheet as you make your jibe. You go faster and the motion is better than DDW (dead downwind),

sea dragon · 04-02-2013, 17:57

Your boat looks nice Dog gone.
is that square thing on the side of the stern topsides a skylight?
How do you like the roller reefing?

Doggone · 04-02-2013, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea dragon

Your boat looks nice Dog gone.
is that square thing on the side of the stern topsides a skylight?
How do you like the roller reefing?

yes, it is a Lewmar low profile skylight. I could call it an escape hatch but it really makes my aft.stateroom special with a window at bed level. After a 4 year trip from SF to central Mexico and back I have yet to see solid water hit it. The bottom is approx.2' off the water. Love the profurl, run a 9oz working jib. Did sail with hank on's on my 37' Searunner Tiva on a 4 year trip thru the South Pacfic in 86-90'. Much safer keeping crew off the bow with roller furling. I went with profurl 13 years ago because it was the most popular model with the charter fleets.

Cavalier MK2 · 05-02-2013, 09:21

One advantage of a symmetric is you can jibe it without collapsing or any fuss with the mentioned set up. Balance the chute, change heading and bring the mani over then fine tune. We can sail good broad reaches as well as down wind. The secret to easy handling is to steer the corrections versus trimming. The course evens out in the long run. In the PNW there are looong runs. We've had runs for 40 - 80 nautical miles, putting the chute up in the Straights and taking it in at the south end of Vashon. I have had asymmetric spinnakers and like them but used the cost is much more. A ugly chute with a tangled sock cost $300 versus the $1000 for a asymmetric.

Not naming names or locations but I heard Brie passed through many hands, all of whom were unable to launch or keep working on her. The storage yard said the owner who brought it in years back had died and the last attempted owner released the title to them which they did indeed have. They just wanted the boat of their lot so to speak. my "friend" surveyed her and found the main hull completely rotten except for the aft cabin roof.....The boat was dismantled and the main hull was cut up and hauled off. All hardware, which was really well made, was salvaged along with all the SS nuts and bolts, pulpits and mast etc....The grungy amas were shockingly not rotten though only made of exterior. Things get a little vague here but they were apparently levitated across a vacant lot whose owner was out of town and down a 60' brushy bank toboggan style one at a time with brake lines. There they were assembled on the beach by lashing the aframes and used instead of a trailer to transport the salvaged gear. (Boat building types do not scrap well made hardware). They were rafted next to the salvage teams tri and the 5 hull contraption was pushed south by a borrowed boston whaler lashed to the tri stern because its motor went on vacation......The amas have been used since for utility functions but any build deserves new ones. The a arms I heard had pretty welds and were padded where they touched but actually started breaking at some of the welds within a few months when it was decided to not save or maintain them as any build should have new ones. I looked at them and am surprised they made it to frisco, I'd never use that style of connection though many have. The boat was well built but of poor material and had obviously had a bad grounding on rocks. There was a crude repair on the main hull. My "friend" said the whole thing was sad, there were things left by past owners and a camping band of raccoons and the boat needed a burial. My "friend" decided to save what could be saved and do the decent thing so more inexperienced boat people wouldn't try so refloat a hazard to navigation. All just hearsay of course told over pints in dim smoky pubs.