Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Jmolan]

It may no longer be true, I don't know... But I was told that Jack is financially invested in the DUX rigging business, which makes his position as such a passionate advocate, make more sense. Salesmanship!

I have never had any interest, or made a dime off of Dux (except using it in Alaska fishing) I made it to one boat show to help introduce the stuff, and had a part in developing Dux for rigging, a very small part. I was the crash test dummy.

Dux does out last steel wire on chaff by 3 to 1 time wise. Over rusty steel decks of working boats.

OK, I really am done with this subject. It has been said, you are entitled to your own beliefs, but not your own facts. Seems we both have a different set of facts, and beliefs. It is human nature to defend your belief, at all cost, rather than consider a different belief. I have nothing to gain by going at it over different beliefs. My beliefs are based on 15 years of use in the best test lab in the world.

Mark, I know I picked this fight, I knew you would have a page of facts. I could spend all day posting and refuting them, but I won't. I have zero to gain, I would ask that we just agree to dis-agree. That is what boats are all about, a reflection of the owners. Enjoy.



Jack

[OutOfControl]

[Cavalier MK2]

Perhaps hybridized standing rigging has merit. Use SS wire on the diamonds and dux on the main rigging that terminates on deck where you can get at it to take up the slack. Tuning a rig over the changes of a season doesn't seem too hard with turnbuckles.

What happens in a lghtning strike with Dux? Would the current follow it like wire? I like the thought of saving weight aloft and have used it for years on running backstays and halyards.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jmolan

It may no longer be true, I don't know... But I was told that Jack is financially invested in the DUX rigging business, which makes his position as such a passionate advocate, make more sense. Salesmanship!

I have never had any interest, or made a dime off of Dux (except using it in Alaska fishing) I made it to one boat show to help introduce the stuff, and had a part in developing Dux for rigging, a very small part. I was the crash test dummy.

Dux does out last steel wire on chaff by 3 to 1 time wise. Over rusty steel decks of working boats.

OK, I really am done with this subject. It has been said, you are entitled to your own beliefs, but not your own facts. Seems we both have a different set of facts, and beliefs. It is human nature to defend your belief, at all cost, rather than consider a different belief. I have nothing to gain by going at it over different beliefs. My beliefs are based on 15 years of use in the best test lab in the world.

Mark, I know I picked this fight, I knew you would have a page of facts. I could spend all day posting and refuting them, but I won't. I have zero to gain, I would ask that we just agree to dis-agree. That is what boats are all about, a reflection of the owners. Enjoy.



Jack

Jack,
Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa...
Apparently I was told incorrectly about your financial involvement with Dux. They DID say that YOU told them of this, however. Hmmm? Nevertheless, I take your word for it as the truth. I wish you would do me the same courtesy, regarding my observations.

ABOUT DUX USED ON COMMERCIAL TRAWLERS AT SEA:
As I said Jack, Your observations on a commercial fishing vessel, where you compared DUX to the old finely stranded steel wire, (being constantly wound around a drum), is a TOTALLY different application, and a moot point. Oh, I believe you... It's just a moot point!
DUX, (vs huge steel cable), is a fraction of the weight, which = a fraction of the abrasion force is applied to it when dragged across a deck. It doesn't rust like finely stranded wire, is more flexible, and takes to being wound around a drum MUCH better, for sure. Due to being more flexible, and the chafe being parallel to the fibers, it also takes to being drug over a ships rails better than much stiffer wire. So what? A standard sailboat's rigging is generally 1X19 SS, straight, stiff, and doesn't move.
You have VERY limited knowledge of the applicability of DUX synthetic rigging, IF it is used on a "tune sensitive" sailboat, (like our Searunner), verified over decades of hard cruising, in a wide variety of climates.

Btw... The World cruiser & professional rigger I consulted about this re-rig that we plan, has rigged thousands of boats, MANY with synthetics. He likes synthetics a lot, but agreed with my assessments about SS wire being the better choice for us, and also agreed about using slightly larger compact strand wire on the uppers.

DUX vs SS wire STANDING RIGGING, CHAFE facts:
As an experiment... Tightly string a pair of shrouds, side by side, with one being SS wire, and the other DUX synthetic... Then, take a large 2" X 14" hand file sanding block, with 80 grit sandpaper on it, and sand perpendicularly across these two shrouds as one. (same pressure goes on each one) You will quickly see that there is absolutely no doubt that the 1X19 SS wire, strung tightly, (like it is on a sailboat), is more chafe resistant than DUX... Perhaps by a factor of 10! You can also use a 2X4, or stick, or anything else for this experiment, that is rough and can snag fibers...
We grab our runners as a handhold every time we board the boat, and have to be careful of what is in our hand or what tool box corners might strafe the DUX. (It has some chafe already from my wife's ring!) This was never true of our SS wire, even after over 17 years.
Used as standing rigging on a sailboat, DUX is simply more vulnerable to chafe than SS wire, from occasional snags, piston hanks sawing back and forth, or sharp/rough metal objects brushing against it and tearing fibers, (Particularly snags perpendicular to the fibers). Imagine what a standard hand saw could do! This is a fact. Synthetic's vulnerability to chafe is still not a deal breaker in my view, but definitely a consideration. I would NOT use it on a forestay with metal piston hanks, for example, and it will not fit in a roller furling extrusion... Even if it would fit, I wouldn't do it, for fear of chafe at the sharp edged inner sleeve bearings.

OPINION:
I stated my "opinion" about the inappropriate application of DUX, (used as standing rigging on world cruiser Searunners), with "imo", before or after the statement. Clearly it was an educated "opinion", stated as such. Then I gave my observations & reasoning, which was "based" on undeniable facts.

THIS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS NOT OPINION, IT'S EASILY PROVEN FACT!
Over a 70 degree spread, Dux vs SS wire... DOES expand and contract FAR less than an aluminum extrusion does, which will change static preload on the rig DRASTICALLY, depending on the temperature extremes. This is FAR less true of SS wire...

I also stated that on "our" boat, meaning Delphys, all DUX rigging would be a disaster! This is a provable fact, Jack. Remember, I know this boat better than anyone in the world. With it's extra tall skinny mast, and sailed as a sloop (with a huge yankee shaped lapper headsail), the upper panel of the mast has a tendency to fall off to leeward, when I sail her really hard in high winds. I control this with VERY tight uppers, semi tight intermediates, and even looser lowers. It is this perfect combination and interaction of preloaded wires, that makes the mast lean as a unit, and stay in column. If I used DUX, and my rig's preloads were changing all over the place, (with the seasons or even time of day), I could still go out, but I certainly could not push the boat without re-tuning it. Like I said, DUX would be a disaster on OUR boat. Btw... the weight savings of a skinny extrusion, (IF of coarse, you can keep it straight), far exceeds the weight savings of using DUX over SS wire. Our mast's extrusion, for example, is >100 lbs lighter than the next size up. (We welded 8' onto the extrusion to make it long enough).

Whether Dux is appropriate on OTHER Searunners, I don't know for a fact. My "opinion", as I said in previous posts, is no, it's not. Even with the standard Searunners' shorter fatter extrusions, and their being sailed as a cutter (vs sloop) when in high winds, the cons of using DUX still outweigh the pros. Again... Imo! Don't read between the lines Jack...

SYNTHETIC'S LONGEVITY:
My "opinion" is that used hard over many years, (>15, as is more often the case before re-rigging), 316 SS wire may still be safe enough to get by, but DUX will be patently unsafe at that point, from UV exposure. THIS is, as I said, just my "opinion", as there is no data yet to support the argument either way. They just don't know the ultimate lifespan!
On the other hand...The number of local cruiser production boats that preemptively change out their 316 SS wire, in < 15 years, is probably .01% or less. Perhaps they should change it sooner, but very few do, and most get away with it.

I base this comparison belief on >40 years of working with plastics of all sorts. As an example... I painted, (first with opaque primer), my Marelon through hull fittings that are above the WL. This is because after 10 or 15 years of exposure to UVs, they can start to crumble. ALL plastics are very vulnerable to UVs, and I have seen thousands of examples of total disintegration after decades of exposure.

I have no ax to grind in any of my posts here, and really don't care when someone disagrees with my opinion. The important thing is to remain rational and respectful of others' opinions. I try to do just that. I am, however, offended, Jack, by your assertions that I stated opinions as facts, as I did no such thing. If you look more carefully, you will see that is the truth. I do state facts in one sentence, and then opinions in the next, but it is easy for the open minded to tell the two apart.
IE: If any statement has: "imo", or "my suggestion", or "It is not advised", or "I don't know, but was told", etc... clearly they are my "opinions". If, however, I state something as a FACT, as is the case with DUX synthetic, regarding its higher tendency to chafe on a sailboat's rig (vs SS wire), OR in DUXs' less compatible coefficient of expansion with an aluminum extrusion, (vs SS wire)... Then you can take it to the bank. It IS a fact.

I think Synthetic rigging is great stuff, "in the right application", but to say that it will replace 1X19 316 grade SS wire, on ALL boats, regardless of how tune sensitive they are, or the climate variances, or the lifespan expected from it, is utter nonsense. I have given the facts AND my opinions, simply in hopes of helping others make the right choice for their particular application.

Case closed,
Mark

[Cavalier MK2]

Seems a covering could take care of the UV. How about new rigging tape for dux to handle chafe and UV? Grab a few rolls and re wrap every couple of years....After all pre SS wire rigging was covered when they wanted it to last, was the term "parceled and served" ? Every new material has challenges and a learning curve as people learn to maximize the potential. It is funny how each new material becomes the traditional in time. And tradition of course brings resistance to change......

[rossad]

The whole world will be reading this Cruising forum.
We have to cool off a bit and stay on track with our Searunners.
As we may get defined wrongly as radical's

[Jmolan]

Sorry everyone, I said I was done, and I am done....:-)

[Roy M]

A big cardboard box, within another cardboard box, strapped to a wooden shipping pallet, arrived yesterday and is sitting in the back of my truck, waiting to be unwrapped. It's the vacuum insulated panels from Nanopore, ready for installation in the new reefer. Oh boy! I'll be sending pics soon. First, I need to install the cold plate supports and paint the interior of the box. This is very exciting stuff.

[Mark Johnson]

Roy,
Looking forward to ongoing photos as you progress. Your work is always state of the art.

Since refrigeration usually represents from half, to WAY more that half of most cruiser's Ah budget, a super insulated & air tight box offers more bang for your buck than anything else. On Searunners, if it goes below the sterncastle floor, that means vacuum panels. (Switching to LED anchor lights is another biggie in saving Ahs...).

When I made my box, I left just one very small end "all" foam, so that the refrigerant tube, and thermometer sensor could pass through. I'm sure that you have a plan for how to do this?

If you do want to sandwich these vacuum panels between some foam as well, (like I did) for cushioning and good measure, then either "refrigeration wholesale outlet" urethane foam, OR R-Max issocianate builders foam, (like from Lowes), are very good choices. I would avoid the home supply blue foam, and especially the white Styrofoam sheet.
Any voids at laps or corners, and the trough at the top of the panels, were filled with "Great Stuff" spray foam, (Lowes).

I used 1" of urathane on the outside of the V panel, (later glassed over) and 1/2" of the R-Max on the inside. The cold plate side got an extra 1/2" in thickness beyond the above, and the bottom an extra inch. The pre epoxy/glassed 1/4" ply walls, were glued in last. (The sides were caulked to the foam, with epoxy fillets later applied in the corners). Then a white pigmented epoxy "gel coat" was applied. The lid just got 4" of foam, as it has the least loss, but over that foam & glass was the 3/4" outer lid of thin veneers over Nomex cardboard core. With a padded carpet over this, it is plenty insulated! On average, the box is about = to OVER 7" of urathane foam.

The R-Max stuff is cheap, easily available, and has one of the highest R ratings of any foam. I used both of the good foams, but on the R-Max, I peeled off the paper sheet that it has on one side. There are a lot of options, but to laminate layer A to layer B... I used caulk as an adhesive, (applied with a notched trowel). It 95% filled all of the voids.

For good measure, an aluminum foil IR radiation barrier was glued onto the exterior of the box with spray adhesive, and THEN, when the box was nestled into place, the outside got between 1" and 2"s of "Reflectex" foil/bubblewrap, around the outer perimeter. (also Lowes) The void between the hull, or seat fronts, and the box, was jammed full of the stuff!

IN THE END:
Our box was NO heavier than the ice box that was in the plans, and the 35# compressor unit was not much heavier than the ice that would have been in that ice box. In the 3 years before installing our refrigeration, we used a cooler in the sterncastle floor. It sweated condensation, made a mess, and over that time cost (in ice), MORE than installing true refrigeration did. This is without a doubt, one of the best features on our boat.

Good luck with it,
Mark

[Boatguy30]

Ahh, yes. He said:He said. The blue board or pink foam is pretty much the best you can get for marine refrigeration......

[Boatguy30]

by "he" I mean there are no chicks on this thread. Not any particular person. The guys that really know refers are in Ft. Lauderdale. If you have the room for 6-8" of foam freezer and 4-6" refer here is no reason for vacuum panels. Its a diminishing return. In the real world R 25 is nearly as good as R50. Of course if you never opened the box or put anything warm in there might be noticeable lab conditions testing.

The blue foam is the best because it doesn't absorb water. The yellow foil cover stuff has a slight amount more R, but turns into a sponge over time.

I guess maybe on certain boats you can't find space for the foam you might need the vacuum, but most boat have boxes that are way to big or the space can be enlarged to fit the foam.


Anyhow, this really is a case of cheaper is better. Blueboard and an air cooled Danfoss is the way to go on any system under 8 or so cubic feet.

[Mark Johnson]

REFRIGERATION:
We're talking in combination with Vacuum panels, for use in the sterncastle floor of Searunners here... If you have tons of room, all foam is fine!

CHOICES OF FOAM:
I didn't mention it before, because it seams so obvious... To prevent any possibility of my foam absorbing moisture and loosing effectiveness, the 1/8" thick outer glass shell of my box, to the lid, to the inner glassed ply liner, is 100% hermetically sealed. It could sit under water for a decade, and once removed, would weigh exactly the same as when it went in! Really...

The abysmal performance of most all production boats' refrigerators, is due to the fact that they always have their foam's back side open to the atmosphere, either directly or indirectly, hidden behind a loose liner. THEY will definitely absorb moisture over the years. If one builds their refrigerator this way, open to the atmosphere, blue foam might be a better choice, but not if it is in a 100% sealed box.

I did many months of research, and choose the far better insulating refrigeration foams over blue foam, because in my box, atmospheric moisture is permanently sealed away from the foam. The same is true of the lid.

Another part of my refrigerator's success, is in the tight lid, as well as it's small 2 qu/ft size. I.E. I have to press down about 20 lbs worth on the non hinged end, to dog the lid, and if I accidentally drop it closed, I might have to pull up HARD for a minute or two, to get it open, as this forms a vacuum in the air tight space inside the box. So, I don't drop it!

HOW MUCH INSULATION?
For a boat refrigerator to be in the top .01% efficiency wise... I stopped my insulation equivalent at an average of > 7" of foam, so that IF it looses a bit over 30 years, it is still guaranteed to be = to 6" of foam. Insulating up to this point, is well worth the effort for maximum efficiency.
After "this" amount, one indeed reaches the point of diminishing returns, and gains only incrementally by more insulation.

ACCESS:
Obviously I open the lid "quickly", but as often as needed. Being so small, and not very deep, (like so many counter mounted versions are), the lid is usually open for just 1 to 4 seconds at a time. I have found that the cool air losses are not a matter of how many times one opens the lid, but how long was the lid open. For this reason we keep the food inside extremely organised, for quick grabbing.

Roy,
Even though you will no doubt go larger on the box, your newfangled variable speed compressor will be more efficient than my older technology model, so you may get similar results nonetheless.

I have found "air cooled" to be sufficient, even in a tropical summer, but I do have TWO ducted muffin fans, (in & out), to vent the compressor's closed box, which is also below the WL, in the coolest part of the boat. I suppose that this makes it "indirectly" water cooled?

Hope this helps,
Mark

[Roy M]

Mark, it's interesting how we both arrived at the same destination, albeit, at different times. I am using the foil backed polyurethane foam to sandwich the VIPs, and these are additionally sealed from the top cover (also built with sandwiched VIPs). Though not a variable speed compressor, it chills the cold plate down in record time, thereby using minimal amp hours.

I've built a number of lids for other folks, so I recognized the value of the RParts stepped lid, with built-in VIP. You have the model of the complete unit that I am copying, so thanks for the reassurance.

Boatguy30, thanks for your suggestions, however I decided some time ago to follow the route of using polyurethane, with the exception of a 1/2" piece of the "pink" foam replacing the outermost sandwich layer of foam. Everything, as with Mark's, will be hermetically sealed. I am using the pink foam, in combination with the 1/4" Reflectex, for the new overhead cabintop insulation, replacing the old 1" styrofoam that had been there for thirty, or so, years. And, I guess, we don't share the opinion that cheaper is better, but all will come out when I do the testing of the system. Everything depends on achieving the lowest amphour consumption for the load that I'm imposing on the system. It all has to be recharged by the eventual solar panels, and it has to keep the porkchops and vanilla ice cream frozen when I'm deep in the Tuamotus. But having the luxury of a bigger boat, for my bigger body, allows me to go big in other ways. I'll post pics as I get stuff done.

I have scheduled my haulout at the end of May, to repaint the bottom and install the new centerboard. It's going to be costly since the only two TravelLifts in San Diego now belong to the same company, and with a 24' beam, that limits one's options.

[Mark Johnson]

Roy,
Sounds like you have really done your refrigeration homework! It will pay dividends down the line, I'm sure...

My box's lid, btw, just like the box itself, is all homemade, not pre-fab parts from R-Parts. In the case of the lid, it is stacked 4" thick of urethane foam, rounded over, and epoxy/glassed underneath. Then this foam block was glued to the feather light "larger" outer lid, made of very thin Okoume veneers, vacuumed down over 3/4" thick Verticell honeycomb core, (Just like all of my floorboards and interior flat panels). With the outer lid's 3/4" dead air space, it's R value is almost like foam. Then I did MicroLite fillets underneath, epoxied them well, applied the gel-coat, and then the gasket. Finally I installed a recessed pull ring, (which required making a 2" solid spot in the honeycomb core), and painted the outside of the lid with nonskid paint, to match the floor.

When we built our box, in '99, vacuum panels were fairly new, and the only pre-fab lid I found was the wrong shape. If you have found an appropriate sized, pre-fab vacuum panel lid from R-Parts, go for it! It will be as good or better, and save you a LOT of work.

I don't know if you plan to seal up your outer pink foam layers with a caulked on pre-epoxy/glassed ply box, one side at the time, (which should work)... OR glass it over, like we did? If it is the latter, bear in mind that epoxy/glass sticks great to Urethane foam, (due to it's porous surface), but probably will not stick well to home center pink foam. Do an experiment, I may be wrong?

Perhaps your plan is to "caulk" pink foam onto the outside of your hermetically sealed box, with your urethane foam & vacuum panels inside? That should work... IF left exposed, urethane foam is crumbly stuff!

PINK/BLUE FOAM:
I had a boatbuilder friend that wanted to "save money" by vacuuming up flat panels for his cat's interior, using 3/4" thick "blue foam" as a core material between ply veneers. He made structural bulkheads of these panels. YIKES! They of coarse, self destructed in short order, as a result of core to skin failure.

YARD DAYS:
Good luck with your haul. I live in fear of our next one, hopefully 4 years away. Due to our 21' width, our only option around here is a HUGE yard that is a 5.5 hour motor away. (45 minute drive by car) I opted not to suffer through living on the boat in the yard, like I did in almost every haul previously, and it was a drag to drive 1.5 hrs a day for 10 weeks, on top of a day of boatwork! The huge yards like this one, cater to the 4 deck, 100' + mega yacht crowd, with crews of 10 guys scurrying all around, spraying or slinging all manner of contaminating crap on my decks. Of coarse, being their bread & butter, their needs came first. I eventually moved to a smaller yard across the street, using the megayard's 200T lift.

I gather that this yard you're going to is a "first time lifting there" for you? A tip... On these HUGE 200T lifts, assuming they have one... If it ever comes up as their proposal, to cross the doubled up straps, (to avoid re-configuring the lift), it is a bad idea. It is especially true on not yet fully cured bottom paint. When they moved me to another yard, they did this cross over, and peeled off the 2 week old bottom paint on my amas! The problem is that these huge straps used for lifting 400,000# boats, weigh about 500#s "each" when out of water, and the HUGE connecting link adds another 150#s or so to that. The subsequent pinching load on the amas is fierce, as the last 2' of the straps become snug.

On the way back in, I insisted on tying the big straps out of the way, and using smaller, single straps, centered on frames. This was what I was used to, and it went much better.

Best of luck with it Roy,
Mark

[Roy M]

Same setup, but we didn't have the pinch problems, probably due to our larger elements. This is a 300 ton TravelLift, for 100' boats. The same company has one for 600 tons. I don't have a clue what beam that will handle.