Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by slowbat

Thanks Will!
I think the EZ Poxy 2 is a two part paint.

________
Anyone have anymore venting tricks?

I know my layout is totally different than the 31' and up, but I plan to grid drill the floor boards and under the forward and aft bunks. also under the mattresses I'll be using dry-deck to keep air moving. Is this a good or bad idea? Is it better to create a bilge tube with air flow in one end and out the other, or to have the entire boat be the air flow tube?

My boat also has just one tiny (3/8") limber hole per bulkhead, and the bulkheads forward and aft of the centerboard trunk had plugs; keeping this area air tight, any reason to keep this area zoned out titanic style? Any thoughts against adding more or enlarging limber holes below the floorboards to all the bulkheads? How big should i go?

ABOUT VENTING YOUR MATTRESS:
We had moisture peel the paint under the mattresses in the first year we lived on the boat. Here is what we did to solve the damp problem:

First we repainted under the bunks, then replaced the 4" foam mattresses into position. These we covered with those water & vapor proof plastic fitted sheets. (Like used on a kid's bed)... Next we got some 2" thick memory foam "toppers" for each bunk, and put them on top of the plastic covered mattresses. This is in turn we covered with a regular quilted top / fitted mattress cover. THEN we make the bed. It is COMFORTABLE!

By sealing the lower mattress, the paint never peeled again, and by having a 3/8" thick absorbent quilted mattress cover over the topper AND mattress below it, we have something absorbent to take to the laundry every month or so. Once a year, we put the 2" thick toppers out on the wing to air out, but regular washing of the quilted cover, really keeps us sleeping in the dry. There is no "crinkly sound" from the plastic layer, btw, because it is captive between the mattress & the 2" topper.

Also, with my having a lot of aches & pains, the < $90 memory foam toppers really stop the tossing and turning.

Our system has worked GREAT, and without it, I doubt that we could have been full time liveaboards for over 12 years.


LIMBER HOLES:
You probably know this but... Your limber holes, more than any other place, needs to be WELL epoxied, because it's vulnerable edge grain ply.

3/8" does seem too small to me, I would go with 1" or not at all.

DRY BILGE:
Nothing will go as far in keeping a happy ship, as ALWAYS maintaining a dusty dry bilge. It prevents rot, mildew, and smells, as well as instantly lets you know if there is a slow leak somewhere.

I have drilled the limber holes that separate the engine compartment from the forward 2/3rds of the hull, located several inches up from the bottom. This way, if I get an engine related leak, (the most likely cause of a leak), It stays there... The bilge water alarm goes off, and the aft bilge pump takes care of it, to a point. If it is leaking too fast, it then goes forward through the limber holes, (3" up), and the forward bilge pump as well as hand operated back up, can take up the slack.

Mark

[Mark Johnson]

Roy:
Yep, they really burn you at the big yards with the monster lifts. Truth is "Daddy Big Bucks" is their preferred clientele. Our haul last summer was quite pricey as well, and the only reason I attempted the quad strap crossover method that they "said" would work fine, is that "re-configuring the straps" to a single up front and a single in the back, would cost an extra $1,000! On the way back in, I had talked them into just tying back the quad straps, rather than remove them, and put some singles in the middle of each lifting boom. This they went for, but next time... who knows?

I hate hauling out... If I had the money for waterfront property, I'd make my own railway.


Maren:
Yes, I read Bob's article... very interesting. It is funny how holes in different locations draw in or exhaust air. When I crawl down to the sub/sub floor level, and feel near the limber holes, there is always a hellova breeze blowing through there.

You know the wonderful Searunner aft opening hatch which sheds rain nicely, when anchored out and facing the wind... Well, not always. When we drop the hook for the night, we normally just put in the part of the cockpit enclosure we call the "connecting piece". It is just Sunbrella canvas, (unlike the Strataglass version), and being soft & flexible, only takes a minute to zip it. As long as we're facing the wind, we can leave the aft companionway flap open, even in the rain. What we didn't anticipate is that the streamlined shape of the dodger, to connecting canvas, to bimini top, would create a strong vacuum, (again, that old "venturi effect"). It makes the aft window curtains blow straight IN! To make it where we could leave the aft window open in a hard rain as intended, we had to make an aft sterncastle "brow extender" out of canvas. It goes in in < a minute, and solves the problem nicely.

Things that make ya go hmmmm.

Mark

[silviris]

Roy: How hard of a time do you think I'll have finding a slip in the bay? Would it be less expensive somewhere a little north? The owner just moved the Searunner 34 I'm planning to buy down to Chula Vista, but I don't know if the slip is transferable. I'm expecting upwards of $600/month for any slip I find since I have to use an end tie, but it would be great if there were something in the general area that was less expensive. Less monthly slip fee = more upgrades and repairs :P

I'm a little dismayed at the price of the haulout and paint....I was hoping for less than $2000

[Roy M]

silvirus, the cheapest multihull slips will be found in Southbay. Go in person, take a picture of your boat (even if you don't have it yet) and ask to see the slips. Chula Vista has non end-tie slips for multihulls. The only downside is that it's an hour or more to the harbor entrance in Point Loma, and most of the water south of the Coronado Bridge is pretty thin. Still, you can sail the Bay, north of the bridge and have a great time, then anchor overnight in Glorietta Bay, near the Del Coronado Hotel. Or, come further west to the Shelter Island area, anchor in the A1 anchorage for the weekend (get a permit from the Harbor Police, first), or..... call me and you can come sidetie to me at Southwestern Yacht Club. I can probably get you clearance to stay for the weekend, and we can sit in the bar and drink beer. My boat always has large fenders set outboard for visiting boats, since all I seem to do these days is work on it.

I'm still hoping that the haulout price is an aberration. I'm still waiting for a response to my questions to management. An option, especially for you, is Driscoll's Mission Bay boatyard. Their Travel Lift is 22 1/2 feet wide, just big enough for you, just tinier than I need. And they welcome boaters to do their own work (except for bottom painting).

[silviris]

Sounds good! I'd definitely like to meet up sometime. My wife is tolerant and even supportive of my boat desires, but it'll be nice to show it off to someone who really appreciates it....when I finally get it, anyway. Maybe next month (if I'm really lucky), but no later than August.

The current owner warned me off about Driscoll...said they did a crappy job on the paint for his boat and he's had to have them redo it a few times. Might be good for other work, but that made me a little leery of using them for paint....

[Roy M]

silvirus, I once ran a boatyard in San Diego, a place called Kettenburg Marine, which no longer exists. At the time, it was the largest outfit in the region. The bad economy in the early 90's spelled its doom. Boatyards change ownership, a lot. The issues your previous owner had may have had merit, or they may have been caused by other factors. I say this so that you don't prejudge without personal experience. If you pay attention to the work being performed you can, pretty much, be assured of getting a good job. Of course, there is always a chance that a bozo, unsupervised by an experienced yard boss, can screw things up. What kind of issues did the owner report to you? That might be important to know prior to becoming the new owner. The owner's report should provide those of us on this forum for some entertainment.

[silviris]

He said the paint started to peel shortly after getting the boat back. Didn't go into too much detail about it, just said he had to take it back a few times because it KEPT peeling even after the repaints. They repainted it for free every time, which is good customer service, but the fact it had to be repainted more than once seems a little ridiculous

[Roy M]

I assume this was paint on the topsides or deck, as opposed to bottom paint? Was it LPU paint (linear polyurethane)? Did the problem get resolved?

[silviris]

No, the topside still needs paint, along with the hideous mast. He said it was the bottom paint, but I assume he meant the part above the waterline....unless he was swimming under the boat or something

[slowbat]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

ABOUT VENTING YOUR MATTRESS:
(Like used on a kid's bed)...
Mark

Funny story, I was hosting a poker night and wanted to save my teak table so I was in line at the check out at my local general store with a case of beer and a kids mattress cover (to save the table) when I thought the girl behind me in line was hitting on me by just staring at me, I hit on her back and struck up a conversation. when it was my turn to check out, I realized why she was looking at me...so I told the clerk "well you should always be prepared"

Good tip on the cover and foam topper, thanks for all of the advice Mark!

[md7a]

Originally Posted by slowbat

________
Anyone have anymore venting tricks?

I know my layout is totally different than the 31' and up, but I plan to grid drill the floor boards and under the forward and aft bunks. also under the mattresses I'll be using dry-deck to keep air moving. Is this a good or bad idea? Is it better to create a bilge tube with air flow in one end and out the other, or to have the entire boat be the air flow tube?

My boat also has just one tiny (3/8") limber hole per bulkhead, and the bulkheads forward and aft of the centerboard trunk had plugs; keeping this area air tight, any reason to keep this area zoned out titanic style? Any thoughts against adding more or enlarging limber holes below the floorboards to all the bulkheads? How big should i go?

My 25 had mildew issues only up high and in the wing areas, though I worried about the lack of flow through air under the cockpit. I found that Beckson deck plates in the cabin facing sides of the fore and aft anchor boxes really helped move air through the cabin.

Grid drilling the bunks helped but not enough. Still wound up removing the boards in the winter.

Had I kept the boat I would have focused on a way to leave one or more companion slides out.

I wonder if it would work to put deck plates and cowls on the cockpit walls? There is a small space between the cockpit walls and the main hull.

[rossad]

This Searunner Family sure has it differences.

OK i have a question that i have not heard anyone talk about
This is to do with the only real problem i have with my 37 Searunner.

How do you clean your centreboard case? Keep it from jamming from growth.
On the water is there an easy way?
Do you fill the case with fresh water stopping growth
Are there any tools made to manually scrape the sides or between the board and case? Or do you dive it and manually scrape from the bottom with a brush or scraper.
Board down or board up. Does any one use a chimney sweep kind of method.
Any bright ideas out there.
On the hard ... that is where my boat is now i have noticed that barnicules have severely scratched the side of the board. And now i need to (and this is not the first time ) get my had up with difficultness get those buggers off.
I can see its an ongoing thing that one needs to fix every 3 or 4 months with the Searunners. It is possible the only downside to these boat.

I would also like to say that Mark has put so much effort into this thread that its given this forum so much depth. It is great and there are some of us that really do appreciate concise views that totally belong to the Searunner family.

Paint will be talked about forever and so it should be as it is just soooooooo important with finally getting onto cruising knowing the paint will stay on no matter what.
I hate paint coming off cause of ill preparation or poor paint... it really can be heart breaking when there was so much effort to get the stuff on in the first place.

I will post some pics next time around. Need to take some first

[Roy M]

Rossad, When I was building my centerboard case, I knew in advance of this issue from the other builders in Los Angeles. Since mine was the only all-West System boat under construction (1974-78) I tried out some new ideas that had just been discovered. The case was built in two halves, divided down the mahogany timber. This allowed me to get to every square inch of inside surface while building. In addition to several layers of fiberglass, I coated everything, but the first two layers of straight epoxy,with graphite powder. At the time, it was new stuff and had been used by the Gougeon brothers to improve abrasion resistance. So, I built up nice radii at the corners, and everything had lots of graphite powder, which I sanded smooth as soon as it kicked off. If you waited a week or so, the surface got so hard and resistant that even a 16 grit grinding pad would only make circular swirls. The inside of the trunk was perfect. The board was also coated with graphite powder to allow it to self-lubricate with seawater. The only problem was that I didn't build up the leading edge with enough fiberglass, so, eventually, it split (from learning how shallow South San Diego Bay could be) and I had to replace the centerboard. The second board lasted almost thirty years until it finally soaked up enough water to jam. The new board reflects the learning curve. When I haul out, later this month, my plan is to let it drain for several days, then lubricate it with liquid detergent and pull it out the top with the halyard. It's how I did the first one, and everything worked out well. The new board should be far less likely to absorb water, and with the Kevlar leading edge, more prone to breaking rocks than fiberglass.

The boat didn't seem to have serious jamming problems from marine growth. Raising and lowering helped it self-clean. I can still look down the trunk and see underwater, so things seem fine. I'll send pics when I haul. here are some pics of the existing board, the last time I hauled, and the new one which will be replacing it.

[Mark Johnson]

A TRIMARAN'S PEELING PAINT WOES:
When looking at a new (to you) boat, that you might buy... Due to their extraordinary surface area, 3 hulls, and the difficult shapes to paint, a good or bad paint job represents THE most labor intensive pro or con. This is more so than any other aspect, short of a hull full of rot.

Adhesion is the most important thing, not looks. The acid test for perfect paint adhesion, is called by the industry... "the cross hatch test". This is something one would normally only do on a sample or in an inconspicuous spot WITH the current owners permission, because it damages the surface.

HOW?
Using a single edged razor blade and cutting completely through the paint... You make a row of parallel lines, 1/4" apart. They should each be about 2" long and make enough rows to = 2" wide. Then do the same in the perpendicular direction. You end up with a lot of little 1/4" squares, in a Tic Tac Toe pattern. Then, using very tacky duct tape or fiberglass reinforced strapping tape, you press a long piece over your cross hatch. Now, using the loose end of the tape, vigorously snatch it off of there! IF, after several rounds of this, none of the squares come off onto the tape, then the adhesion is excellent! That's the goal...

Only 2 part paints can achieve this level of adhesion, and it is absolutely necessary if, for example, one is dealing with new boat hardware installation, using the Gougeon Bros epoxy bonded hardware installation method. (Refer to their book).

It is quite simple really. After a trial fit to scribe the base of the hardware, you remove it, mask off the footprint, and surface sand the 2 part paint with 100 grit. Next you wet-sand the base of the hardware with 80#, using straight catalyzed epoxy rather than water, and wipe off the excess, yet leaving it wet. Then you pre wet the fasteners as well. Before it starts to gel, you bed the hardware AND fasteners with Silica thickened epoxy, and screw it down. This means that the pad eye's base has 100% contact with the boat, as does the flat head fastener with the indention in the hardware. It is the strongest possible method of attachment, because it can NOT move at all, is mechanically fastened, and it's chemically bonded. My last boat's mast was held up entirely with epoxy bedded "U" bolts.

On Delphys, I only use this method on small lashing eyes & oblong base pad eyes, that will never fail or need to be removed. I have never had a problem, and it has several advantages like when used on small hardware mounted to a radius, like the wing's forward radius.

On a tighter radius that's getting larger hardware, like the bow's deck edge extension, I cover the pad eye's base with 3-M blue plastic tape, (as a mold release). Then I temporarily mount the oblong base pad eye into position for marking a masked off & sanded, but painted surface. Then remove the hardware... Here I am mounting something flat to something round. Next I bed the hardware in Silica & Hi-D thickened epoxy. (Then carefully clean up the excess up to my pre-masked footprint). When it gels but is not yet rock hard, I remove the 3" machine screws, and the hardware pops right off, due to the layer of tape which epoxy will not stick to.

I have now made an oblong shaped plastic "flat place" on a 1/2" radius, that PERFECTLY matches the oblong base of the hardware that will go there. Then, after is sets fully, and after prepping the new "flat spot's" surface, I remove the plastic tape "mold release" from the hardware, and use the epoxy bonding method relying on the 3" long X 1/4" machine screws which had their threads tapped into the wood & then got wet out.

I have experimented with samples, and this bonding method is stronger than the hardware OR the head of the machine screw itself, IF it is this this long, relative to it's dia.

This and many other applications can only be done on a paint job that is 100% bonded, like Gelcoat is on a FRP production boat. On our boats, this would only be achievable with 2 part paints. Otherwise, one needs to remove all paint on the footprint of where the above method is to be attempted. Considering all of the solvent wiping, I still wouldn't try it without 2 part paint.

Back to... when assessing a boat's paint job.
Let's face it... No one is likely to allow the cross hatch test, so the GOODENUFF test will usually do. This is simply sticking little 1" X 2" tape swatches onto the boat, in about 100 places, then snatch them off. IF no paint comes off, it may not be 100%, but it is probably goodenuff, (except for the epoxy bonding hardware thing).

Many boat owners/sellers would not allow this test either, but those with confidence in their paint job's adhesion would. As a bare minimum, you need to be able to mask off any part of the boat, without pulling up paint when you remove it. Even 1 part paints should be able to achieve goodenuff adhesion!

What if there is peeling paint? This can be from poor prep OR being UVd out, if it's 1 part, OR if it is 2 part LPU paint, it would definitely be from poor prep before painting. I was next to several professional LP painters for months in Trinidad, and was amazed at the lack of proper prep. They would do a solvent wash, and quickly run a sander down the side, but leave 1' square areas that were still shiny! These cheap third world LP paint jobs looked GREAT, and the customer was happy, until it started peeling, a few years later.

The proper prep requires that you use spray can paint or an acetone & black pigment slurry, to turn the white hull translucent black, (called guide-coat). Then you sand with 280# of so, until ALL of the hull is dull white. THEN another solvent wipe, tack, and paint. "Roller tip", btw, can give surprisingly good results, and is easier than you think.

With 1 part paints, you have to use the proper mild solvent to wipe her down, or water, but the sanding to a total glaze EVERYWHERE, is still important.

With using 1 part marine enamels on the interior, sanding to a total glaze is hard to achieve, due to all of those stringers & frames. Here, I do what I can sanding lightly, and then soften the paint I'm covering with several applications of an appropriate softening prep-solv. This creates a goodenuff chemical bond, with those spots that did not get sanded. This is if I start painting within 15 minutes or so.

PEELING PAINT ON THE OUTSIDE:
Re-painting a failing paint job will not work, unless you FIRST remove the failing paint underneath. This is easy with bottom paint of a contrasting color, but with white on white on white topsides, it is almost impossible to know when you have removed the failing layer, unless you sand it ALL, very slowly & carefully, until the hull itself is ghosting through. Aggressive sanding will go into the thin glass sheathing and ruin it!

Next you need to re-prime with a grey primer, even with 1 part paint. This blocks the UVs from shining through, and damaging the hull's sheathing. This is because, unlike production boats, there is no opaque gel coat over the glass job on our custom "one offs"..

Newer one offs made in the WEST system, or that were "epoxy" glassed, are far more vulnerable to UV degradation than older polyester boats, but both develop problems (crazes & glass fabric print through), if not kept out of the Sun. It shines right through white paint & primers).

SO... If you have peeling paint, don't just paint over it, remove the failing layers first or it will peel again. Remember, each paint job, layer after layer, can weigh a couple of hundred pounds! It adds up.

Mark

[Cavalier MK2]

Latex is your friend. Avoid chemical pre-preps, solvents, water is the stuff of life. The other things, like embalming, are from someplace else....