Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[w32honu]

Paul,

Forgot to mention.......

There is another book that is well worth the time and effort. Written by Chris White....."The Cruising Multihull." (I believe that is the title)

It is well written and has an excellent section dedicated to trimarans. He lays out the basic rules and formula that would apply to an offshore design. Beam, length, stability, buoyancy of the Amas, sail area.......etc. Lots of interesting stuff. And written so that I could understand it.

None of his (Chris White) theories and work is etched in stone of course. But CW is a very well respected designer. So I used a good bit from his book to evaluate different boats and designs. Using his info I found a few of John Marples CC designs that hit the sweet spot.

[Pauly1980]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

You should put Cross tris on your list to, they are great cruisers. Add up your payload, dive tanks are heavy and start looking from there. This is one place where the fuller hulls of the Cross and Tristar pay off. A sleeker hull won't sail as well if it is overloaded. There was a nice SR40 for sale up here a few years ago with a well documented build, so they are out there but there aren't many of them.

I have thought about Cross's designs but I haven't seen many for sale in the larger sizes.

Originally Posted by Seafarer24

The Constant Camber boats are essentially Searunners with a modernized construction technique. They have the same layout and features.
John Marples worked for Jim Brown, and collaborated with him on these designs.
In The Case for the Cruising Trimaran, Jim talks about the 34 being his best, safest design, by incorporating the lessons learned from all of the others. All of the CC designs have these features as well.

They are also listed on the Searunner website.
Searunner Multihulls - Constant Camber 40

Here is a video of a CC40:
https://youtu.be/GvFB8xH03ic

Here is a video review of a CC35 by Jim Brown:
https://youtu.be/Q-Wemfa9Q20

I've looked at the CC series and they appear to be a nice boat, seems like a lot more effort to build than a searunner however and I think if you are going to those lengths to build that foam sandwich wouldn't be much more effort for a hull that doesn't rot. If one came up for sale at the right price though I would jump on it but I notice they also have a significantly lower payload per foot than the searunners. Guess that's the tradeoff for the sleeker hulls.

Originally Posted by Seafarer24

These people *just* listed their Cross 46 in the DR for sale for $59k

FOR SALE: 1975 46′ Norman Cross Trimaran Sailboat from Oh Sail Yes – Oh Sail Yes!

Can't believe they are selling that boat. I enjoyed there quirky youtube channel. It's definitely a roomy boat but I'm honestly not a fan of the ketch rig. Much prefer the sloop rig or even the cutter. I imagine it would be a lot more work to sail a ketch shorthanded than the others.

Originally Posted by w32honu

Paul,

Things might have changed but I believe that Leon Bart had his CC-37 FC for sale. It is one of my favorite designs in the CC line. John Marples designed her strictly as a cruising boat for two people. It turned out to be a fast and seaworthy boat. Leon won the OSTAR with that boat. Which is no small feat. Houd van Hout is her name.

Not sure if it still for sale or not. If so it would be located in the Netherlands.

Regardless there is a good bit on line about that particular boat. It is worth researching and having a look.

Cheers.

I'll have to check it out. A searunner 37 might be fine but payload worries me. Realistically my minimum diving payload would be about 200 lbs and if I actually take all my gear to dive the deep wrecks more like 500lb.

Does anyone have any idea what sort of payloads are carried when you look at food, water etc for extended trips? That might help to narrow down what my minimum payload requirement is.

Anyways, I'm stuck here in Antarctica until at least December so I'll be holding off actually chasing anything to then. I have some friends that are Naval Architects and boatbuilders but I'd rather be able to look at any prospective boat with my own eyes as well before I lay out a large sum of money.
Thanks everyone for all your suggestions, this has really been inline with all the other positive stuff I have got from reading this thread an I just hope I haven't detracted from the searunner talk too much. I'll also grab that other book about cruising multi's if it's on kindle and have a read. Always more room in the brain for hard earned knowledge.

Paul

[Cavalier MK2]

Norm Cross had a good spread sheet for payload, I'll see if I can find it. The basics are the amount of water per person a day + food. You should figure at least a gallon and weigh your groceries for a day. This is why water makers can save weight. As to the ketch rig you can convert to a cutter if you find a good deal. It just means using a compression post and moving chainplates etc.....

[Seafarer24]

The concept of the CC design was actually to make it easier to build than the Searunners by eliminating a lot of the pieces. I agree that going with foam core would ve preferable, but I am not inclined to build my own boat. That CC40 in the video was listed for $70k, which sounds reasonable to me.

Average weight of food per person per day is 2.5lbs
Average weight of water per person per day is 15lbs.

Provisions for two people for 30 days is 150lbs of food and 900lbs of water.

1000lbs of water ~ 120 gallons ~ 16 cubic feet of tankage.

Water makers and rain catchment systems can reduce the amount of water that must be stored, so long as you are aware of having to rely on such systems and take precautions for the advent of equipment failure or draught.

[Cavalier MK2]

Norm's list is good as it has different scales on the provisions basically from mean and lean up to plump. We can maybe use 1/2 that water in a month for 2 people as a example if we get extravagant. Add a washing machine or long showers it won't be enough.

[rossad]

Pauly1980
Diving off a trimaran isnt that ideal i believe because there is not a boarding platform.
There are some with steps arranged down the stern but they wouldn't suit all the gear that you would wear just not the room at sea level. These trimarans also have boarding ladders but they too are not ideal for the height is almost a metre or more.
the only way to achieve the getting back onto the tri would be best done by an inflatable plateform with a ladder into the water and another one designed up to deck level. I have what you call 10 man Stand up paddle board in my business and this kind of thing would be ideal. It could be designed in such a way that one end could be tapered so a diver could literally swim on or step up onto. And then from standing you could either pass the gear onto the vessel or walk up with the gear on.
I have on the rudder 3 steps so that i can get back up onto the boat cause there really is not other way if I were to fall over board.
Just ideas that you probably would have come across anyway.
The other aspect to these older trimarans are they do need some work keeping them seaworthy. that is money and time. There are places you can get that work done much cheaper and in a quicker time frame.
Not sure if the tri is the right boat for diving being the main reason for cruising. with a tri you would need minimum 40ft vessel for the payload your talking about.
Also an incredible place to dive is Amami Oshima. And an amazing place to visit cause nobody goes there much.

[Pauly1980]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Norm Cross had a good spread sheet for payload, I'll see if I can find it. The basics are the amount of water per person a day + food. You should figure at least a gallon and weigh your groceries for a day. This is why water makers can save weight. As to the ketch rig you can convert to a cutter if you find a good deal. It just means using a compression post and moving chainplates etc.....

I like the idea of water makers but will have to research them a bit more. I'm trained to maintain/fault find and run our big reverse osmosis plant down here and I'm guessing thats the principle that the water makers on boats run on so that will be simple enough.
Sounds like a lot of extra cost converting to a sloop. I'd guess it would require a new mast as well as larger sails?

Originally Posted by Seafarer24

The concept of the CC design was actually to make it easier to build than the Searunners by eliminating a lot of the pieces. I agree that going with foam core would ve preferable, but I am not inclined to build my own boat. That CC40 in the video was listed for $70k, which sounds reasonable to me.

Average weight of food per person per day is 2.5lbs
Average weight of water per person per day is 15lbs.

Provisions for two people for 30 days is 150lbs of food and 900lbs of water.

1000lbs of water ~ 120 gallons ~ 16 cubic feet of tankage.

Water makers and rain catchment systems can reduce the amount of water that must be stored, so long as you are aware of having to rely on such systems and take precautions for the advent of equipment failure or draught.

Yeah I realise why they did the CC boats, just looks very labour intensive for a wooden boat in the end. And yes that 70k does sound reasonable.

Originally Posted by rossad

Pauly1980
Diving off a trimaran isnt that ideal i believe because there is not a boarding platform.
There are some with steps arranged down the stern but they wouldn't suit all the gear that you would wear just not the room at sea level. These trimarans also have boarding ladders but they too are not ideal for the height is almost a metre or more.
the only way to achieve the getting back onto the tri would be best done by an inflatable plateform with a ladder into the water and another one designed up to deck level. I have what you call 10 man Stand up paddle board in my business and this kind of thing would be ideal. It could be designed in such a way that one end could be tapered so a diver could literally swim on or step up onto. And then from standing you could either pass the gear onto the vessel or walk up with the gear on.
I have on the rudder 3 steps so that i can get back up onto the boat cause there really is not other way if I were to fall over board.
Just ideas that you probably would have come across anyway.
The other aspect to these older trimarans are they do need some work keeping them seaworthy. that is money and time. There are places you can get that work done much cheaper and in a quicker time frame.
Not sure if the tri is the right boat for diving being the main reason for cruising. with a tri you would need minimum 40ft vessel for the payload your talking about.
Also an incredible place to dive is Amami Oshima. And an amazing place to visit cause nobody goes there much.

Hi Ross, I have no intention to dive off the tri. Rather I'd be diving off the tender as I'd prefer to anchor the tri in a good position as most dive sites are coral or rock bottoms. I have actually towed tenders behind me whilst diving and they actually aren't that bad. Also mean you don't have to swim back to the boat.

As for the tri I primarily want it to cruise and diving is the 2nd agenda but I really dislike the ride in monohulls. Everyone I know has large cats these days and I also don't really like them. If the tri I end up with is smaller than I'd like then diving will have to be scaled back to make it work.
I will have to check out Amami Oshima as well.

Cheers

[Redreuben]

Pauly1980; I'm interested in your Horstman comments about unused and poorly used space, could you be another more specific please.

[Cavalier MK2]

Looking on Ed's site the Tristar layouts seem pretty conventional, what the builders do can vary wildly.

The ketch has the advantage of dropping the main and continuing on with mizzen and some jib. They have enough area in the main and jib to play sloop and drop the mizzen for a windward bash. Technically you'd want the mast a bit back for a dedicated sloop and further aft for a cutter.

Yes it would cost more but if the boat needed new standing and running rigging as well as sails it could well be cheaper. you'd sell the ketch masts and source a taller one for the cutter. More work though, my advice is keep open to all the possibilities.

While these big cruising tris can move along in the trades in lighter inshore wind they tend to sail in a more reserved fashion and need light air sails to get up and go.

The image is of a Cross 42 set up as a cutter to give you an idea of the location change.

[Bimmerpilot]

Ahoy All!

'simple question...

Is Ed Horstman of Tri-Star fame still alive and now living in Montana or is Ed dead and he bequest his name, reputation, and rights to his designs to a long and lost ____?

I contacted edhorstmanmultihulldesigns dot yadda-

with a simple question;

"Whom it May Concern,

I'm interested in the Tri-Star 36 though I would like to know the difference between the $40.00 Tri-Star 36 "Study" Plans and the $800.00 Plans? "

And I didn't get a response...

Is this typical of dealing with Ed Horstman and Tri-Star? Several years ago I had the pleasure of talking with Bruce Kirby over the phone and though he designed the San Juan 24 30-years prior... He was enthusiastically responsive to my questions...

Is www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns a honest company, or would I be better off buying a set of second-hand plans?

TIA.

Any Tri-Star owners care to chime in?

[Pauly1980]

Originally Posted by Redreuben

Pauly1980; I'm interested in your Horstman comments about unused and poorly used space, could you be another more specific please.

I am only going off the photos I was looking at of a 50 footer for sale. The internals of the main hull are really open and look like they could have been put to better use with more storage space.
I do really like the appearance of the Horstman's though. Something sleek about the outline but seeing as though the designer was into aeronautics it's no real surprise

[Roy M]

This is a quick reply. I've spent a lot of time on Cross and Horstman Tris, working, sailing, drinking. I am a great fan of Norm Cross, I knew him personally, he reminded me regularly of the superiority of his designs to Jim Brown's (in his opinion &#128514, and we spent many weekends rafted together in Glorietta Bay, near the Coronado Hotel, drinking wine and trading stories. His boats are more capacious than Searunners, for the most part, slower, and probably more numerous. I like them a lot for cruising. Two of them, particularly, ANDURIL (Don Sandstrom) and THESIS (Bill Ingraham, builder, and Jim and Rhea Turner, owner/cruisers) have spent extensive time at sea in far away places. My

I'm not a fan of Horstm designs. I've spent time sailing and repairing them. They are roomy (what Jim Brown has characterized as "roomarans", the foredeck curves downward, which I found uncomfortable in choppy conditions​, and they are SLOW in tacking. Inside is a LOT if volume, meaning dark spaces that don't offer a lot if utility. But, these are my personal opinions, others may feel quite differently. For me, the compact design of the Searunners, coupled with BIG side decks and good handling characteristics are my particular personal preference.

[rossad]

Your a gentleman and a scholar Roy i couldn't agree with you more.
Today Searunners and or CC are still being built i believe, not sure if that is true or not.
That is how good the designs are. And the plans and there safety record is second to non.

[Cavalier MK2]

Originally Posted by Bimmerpilot

Ahoy All!

'simple question...

Is Ed Horstman of Tri-Star fame still alive and now living in Montana or is Ed dead and he bequest his name, reputation, and rights to his designs to a long and lost ____?

I contacted edhorstmanmultihulldesigns dot yadda-

with a simple question;

"Whom it May Concern,

I'm interested in the Tri-Star 36 though I would like to know the difference between the $40.00 Tri-Star 36 "Study" Plans and the $800.00 Plans? "

And I didn't get a response...

Is this typical of dealing with Ed Horstman and Tri-Star? Several years ago I had the pleasure of talking with Bruce Kirby over the phone and though he designed the San Juan 24 30-years prior... He was enthusiastically responsive to my questions...

Is www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns a honest company, or would I be better off buying a set of second-hand plans?

TIA.

Any Tri-Star owners care to chime in?

As far as I know Ed is alive and in Montana. All of these guys can take awhile to get back to you. I always found it fastest to call Ed versus email.

I like some of Ed's designs and wouldn't kick any of them out of the berth if the deal was right. The 36 is a great cruiser and the 35xr one of the sleeker ones. In the small sizes like the 27-9 and 24 nothing can touch them because in those sizes you really need the space to be liveable.

As to the darkness nothing hatches or prisms wouldn't cure. For sure there is elbow room.

[Cavalier MK2]

Just looked at the dimmerpost again and saw the comments about Ed being a honest company and the newness of the join date. I could think it might be a loooong time before Ed got back to you if he read it.