Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[aquavitae]

Originally Posted by rossad

Yea thats what i reckon.....what a deal....
Its crazy these tri's of Jim Browns people just dont get it.
These boats just dont fetch good prices anymore.
Yet the build and fitout in 2012 is kinda out of the question.
Expense time and heartache.... chanllenging yourself .... for completion...
Life doesnt seem long enough or fair.
I think of poor Roy working to complete his SR40 it must be a big task.
Anyway i will one day post some pics of my 37.
I would like to see some pics of Cavalier MK2 tri...
Wonder what where the changes with the MK2.

Hey, Rossad or maybe Pat and Karl

About how many gallons of bottom paint should I estimate to put at least two coats on a Searunner 37- that is both amas, main hull, mini keel and centerboard?

Tanks a lot
Bob Petersen

[PatnKarl]

Using a hard paint like Trinidad, you would need at least 3 gallons and possibly part of a fourth to get 2 good coats especially including the centreboard which we don't get to every painting.

Good luck. We just lifted Ishmael back into the water here in the Great White North and are very much looking forward to getting back to cruising - southbound in the fall.

Pat

[rossad]

Aquavitae
i think your meaning the antifoul area or everything below waterline. 2 coats would be 8 litres. on a SR 37 the arma's are not really a big area or nothing compared to the main hull. Time wise it took me about 2 hours for one coat ... that is all three hulls under the waterline. Spraying seems to be an easier option the equipment is cheap to hire in new zealand or buy though i roll all my work or brush. the build up of paint is what i can see as a hassle. Thin thin thin coats with anything you do that would be my biggest learning curve with these ply boats.

[Mark Johnson]

Just a thought... We switched from hard paints, like my old fav, Trinidad, to ablative types. We are currently trying Ameron's ABC#3... a harder than average, (for ablative), commercial paint. By putting on 3 good coats, with 5 on the radius's, WL, keel, foils, as well as leading & trailing edges, we can go over 5 years between haul outs! Our last haul out was 5.5 years ago in Trinidad, and we are just now doing the bottom again!

I do jump in and wipe the hull "lightly" every few weeks, during season. This is required for such long life, AND an ablative that doesn't ablate much, like most do.

The thing about hard paints, like Petitts Trinidad, is that they require that you sand 90% off at each haul, or you are carrying around 100 pounds of dead paint!

Ablatives "wear themselves" down to about 1 coat thick, or less, and only require a power wash and wetsand or scrub with a Scotch Brite. As long as some paint is on there, its still working.

Ablatives are a fraction of the work, and hauling out every 5 years instead of 2, MORE than pays for the extra paint expense on application.

We bought 5 gallons for our 34, and expect to use over 4 gallons of it. (5 gallon cans, btw, usually cost about the same as 3 in individual cans).

M.

"Down island, 5.5 years ago"...

[rossad]

Personally i like ablatives and that will easily come off. Water blasting for antifouling. The build up of paint on the water line is a hassle and needs to be kept as thin as possible. I dont have to have a perfect finish but like to have an easier method that makes the work load less. Makes for more time on the water. These Searunners you can go on and on forever changing improving really the ultimate tinkering machine, one could easily get into a bigger job than what they wanted, always a new supposedly better product to experience and learn eg paints..... So many factors to consider. Keep it simple and get out sailing.....

[Roy M]

I just saw a bottomjob done with a copper dust in epoxy matrix called Coppercoat (Coppercoat USA). It was quite interesting, The boat had been cruising the Pacific Northwest for the last few years and was on its way south, stopping to extend the boot top upwards to accommodate more jars of peanut butter. It is, surprisingly, like the graphite powder in West System that I used below my waterline when I built my boat, more than thirty years ago. The surface had turned green, but when burnished, became shiny copper again. It is supposed to last about ten years. The evidence I saw confirms this. It, apparently, has been recently approved for US use. Any one have any experience with it? Insofar as my bottom paint is virtually non-existent, I am seriously considering this stuff for my upcoming haulout and centerboard replacement. Perhaps I will be an "early adopter", once again.

[Cavalier MK2]

It is an old idea, I've heard of it but up here copper is being banned.....I'm wondering how traditional boats with copper sheathing will fare. Back to the question I've heard it works great but like the point made about hard paints it is hard to remove when it wears out. I use water based ablatives in the PNW.

[Mark Johnson]

Roy,
I haven't used this "particular" product, but...

When we were still in the building process, we used a product similar to this in keeping with our environmentally aware beliefs, and in hopes of a LONG service life. Like several of our environmental "experiments", this one didn't pan out.

There were many such products available at the time (Perhaps 6 or 7), being tried by different companies. They were ALL basically copper powder in pure epoxy resin, with minor differences.

A number of our multihull building friends tried different brands around that time too. NovaCote, EpcoTec, Copper Clad, WEST System's powder, etc... We choose CopperPoxy, which had changed hands, right after we bought the first batch. The new company immediately switched the copper powder to a copper flake. This turned out to be a disaster! Read on...

We put on about 18 or 20 mills, (This was more than needed), then sanded about half of it off to get it perfectly flat and level, then polished another 2 off with 220 grit. We had a gelcoat smooth copper coat, about 8 mills thick, that looked JUST like a new penny! I figured that IF this solved the problem for 15 years, it was worth the months of work and the considerable expense.

After launching our bare hull, (first 2 years in the water), we were living in the high growth waters of Beaufort SC. At first I only had to scrape the hull every few weeks, but VERY soon it was EVERY week. Each time, the barnacles would be about the size of a large pea, and the infestation was worse near the underwater metal. (Shaft, prop, strut, rudder hdw, and copper grounding plate. Everywhere, they were REALLY stuck!

This was when I realized that copper "sheet" isn't really a deterrent, and in reality, ships used it mostly for boring worms... The copper plate had the most growth! (Copper works in bottom paint, because of the sloughing off of the paint, the breakaway nature of the very surface layer, and/or constantly presenting new copper to the barnacles).

I had bonded these metal parts internally, (as in ABYC), and later, upon Stan Honey's advise, separated the copper grounding plate from the others, as well as from the boats AC & DC systems. This helped.

It turns out that small currents, from different metals, attracts barnacles like mad! I was an ABYC member at the time, so took my books & the "Galvanic compatibility" apparatus, to check for a problem with my chosen metals. There was none. They were close enough on the galvanic scale.

The growth was all over the boat, but FAR worse near these metal part areas. (only about 30 or 40% of the main hull).

This area was a disaster. It attracted barnacles like mad, and NOWHERE could they be wiped or scrubbed off. They attached in a way totally different than on bottom paint, which actually gives up a microscopically thin piece of itself, when you remove well attached barnacles. The CopperPoxy did NOT, so the critters, (grape size in 10 days), had to be chopped off with a stiff, sharp, blade. It was a nightmare!

Between the scuba tank fills, and this weekly chore, it ate up a day of the week, for our entire first 2 years. (The second year was in Titusville FL, which was a bit better, but similar).

I am a good diver, and was VERY fit, but even with multiple tanks of air, any attempts to wet sand a new surface, underwater, was a waste of time. I only got about 1' done!
You just can't press hard enough.

By this time, I had gotten feedback from my boatbuilder friends in various parts of FL, and ALL had come to the same conclusion. "It is a flawed concept", and NONE of them work! They ALL painted over the stuff with bottom paint, saying: "What a relief to be rid of that useless ****"!

It was my turn, so I went across the Gulf of Mexico to the Pensacola Shipyard, for my first haul. After VERY thorough prep, I put on 3 coats of Trinidad, and launched. Then, 2 weeks later, when I dove on the boat, I was shocked that in that 40% of the main hull "problem area", ALL of the paint had peeled off.

Thinking it was perhaps from rain, when in the yard, we just did these areas over, with an epoxy barrier coat in places, and set out for Central America.

When we came back, 7 months later, it had happened again. Then I realized what was going on. Because of their copper FLAKES, vs powder, my chosen brand of copper loaded gelcoat, (under the barrier coated bottom paint), was ever so slightly electrically conductive! SO... unlike the other brands, which were also "nada" as an antifouling, MY brand could NOT even be coated over, near the underwater metal, with ANYTHING. In these isolated areas... It had to be ground off, with 36 grit, then a new barrier coat was put on this repair before bottom paint.

TWO hauls latter, the repair area was made larger, then larger still, until I was WELL beyond the underwater metal.

It has now been over 10 more years, and bottom paint sticks fine. 80% of the boat's bottom paint still has CopperNadda under it, with no ill effects. It DOES make a good hard barrier coat. The problem area, became "NO problem", after removing it entirely, barrier coating the hull, and bottom paint.

ALL of these companies selling wishful thinking "snake oil", have gone belly up, (Most of them in just a few years). Only MY brand was a problem painting over later, (due to the flakes), so for most, painting over it was an easy enough solution.

For a full time in the water "cruising boat", this is a flawed concept. None of them stood the test of time from '85 to '95, and I doubt that this new brand will either. I wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole!!!

For small trailerable daysailed, or beachable boats, and dinghies, it would make a good HARD and tough bottom for dragging the boat on, and if wiped well weekly, and re-polished once a month or so, might offer a bit of antifouling in low growth areas. I liked it on my Kledgacell dinghy just fine.

BUYER BEWARE!

M.

[Mark Johnson]

And if you're not scared yet...

[Cavalier MK2]

The people I talked with had used copper powder, maybe the had extra cans to sell With the current (pun) prices high it would be a very expensive these days.....

[rossad]

I use Altex copper base ablative number 4 or 5. Around $200 NZ for 4 litres. Seems to be pretty good. Two coats will last 2 years. Probably its the most popular here in Auckland. Firstly cleaning with a piece of ply for the first 6 to 8 months then going to a hard brush for the remainding time. Try to keep the work load down. Wish i could afford to pay somebody else to do the job.

[Roy M]

Curious. It's not at all what I observed on a three year old Coppercoat hull. I am going to keep inquiring and investigating. I like what I saw.

[Cavalier MK2]

Might be the difference when using the powder, the flakes might have allowed more epoxy to be exposed than copper. Bottom paint is one area where all boaters think "there has to be a better way...." When attempting to stay eco friendly easy scrubbing is at the top of the list because the paint available doesn't have as much copper. So you are already prepared for more dives but if it cleans easily it is the difference between a snorkel and an air tank.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Roy M

Curious. It's not at all what I observed on a three year old Coppercoat hull. I am going to keep inquiring and investigating. I like what I saw.

Roy,

I wish... It would be great. That's why I spent a fortune and a month + of labor trying to make my boat where I seldom had to haul out at all, (at great expense).

People used to say great things about our CopperPoxy hull too, for a short while. It was SO hard & tough. You couldn't even scratch it! Then the copper on the surface became NADA, and the 95% that was buried & sealed from the water, (unlike bottom "paint") does no good at all.

There is also the issue that sheet copper doesn't deter barnacles, it deters boring worms. The "Cupurous Oxide" in bottom paint, is very different from, just copper, as is the controlled release binders.

Presumably, it is the particular state of oxidation, created by bottom "paints" that is when copper repels barnacles... Thus Cupurous Oxide. I'm no expert on bottom paint, but that's my take on it.

My copper plate for grounding, had 3 stages. When it was shiny copper, they loved it. Then, when it had green powder coming off, they didn't. All too soon after that, it turned dark brown, and they loved it again.

If you observed a copper epoxy bottom for 3 years, kept year round in high fouling waters, and it remained barnacle free "without weekly scrubs", then that is indeed VERY different results than I observed, as well as my friends over the years. I know of perhaps a dozen cruisers, all multihullers, who tried such products. Of the "all year in the water cruisers", they ALL covered it with bottom paint, eventually. Bottom paint is admittedly a terrible solution, but so far, it is IMO... the one that works.

The silicone bottoms had promise, for being so easily cleaned, but cost a fortune, and the lift's straps could ruin it! I saw a bottom job worth many thousands, ruined in one lift.

I sure hope they DO come up with a true solution. Right now we are trying ABC #3 copper based ablative. Steve Dashew uses it, as do many ships. It is harder than most, but this allows for less ablation. While it may be less effective, it allows 5 years of wipedowns, with minimal plumes in the water.

I'll let you know...

By all means, make a choice based on what you observe, as we all must, but what I went through made my first 4 years in the water, pure HELL! I would honestly have given $10,000 to have made a different choice in the first place.

I was only trying to pass this on to help my fellow Searunners avoid the heartache. It was SO expensive, SO hard to apply, SO usless, SO hard to sand, and a "final" no more issues resolution, took 5 hauls over 8 years!

Like I said, with the untried stuff, buyer beware!

M.

These friends' self built 54' Juniper II started out with a similar product, it sounded perfect for such a difficult boat to haul, but not for long... They painted over it.

[rossad]

Thanks mark I will stay away from those products. Thats good enough for me.