trimaran neel , bad news,,,

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

This is just totally wrong, why would you need to do repairs if the boat is built properly? The reason custom cats use interior furniture for load carrying is because it is lighter, stronger, noiseless and stiffer - all really good outcomes. The reason you don't do it is because of cost of labour. It is not a benefit in any other way.

Saying the "right way of building a cat with flexible joints" is again totally false. It is one way to build a cat, that will be heavier because the hull needs more laminate, squeak more, flex more and be quicker to make. It doesn't make it right, it just makes it cheaper and heavier. Bonding even a very thin 5mm plywood cupboard to a hull skin will make the hull skin incredibly stiff and much better able to cope with sailing loads. My sub floors on my 4000kg 38ft cat are made from 5mm plywood. These webs mean that you can jack the boat anywhere along its centreline - anywhere, from the bow to the stern, all because the 5mm ply is part of an epoxy glued AND tabbed underfoor structure. It took me a while to build it but man is it strong and stiff and useful for dividing the bilge.

Production builders may choose not to bond interior structures to the hull using epoxy glue and tabbing, but they do not do it because it is a "better" build method - it is cheaper, which makes it better for those who don't mind extra weight, squeaking and flexibility. But for a better engineering solution, constructing the interior from engineered materials that assist the structure to cope with loads is stronger, lighter and stiffer but will take more labour.

cheers

Phil

Yes and no, a cat can be built the way you describe and it will be very strong and light. An alternative approach is to design the shell as a monocoque. This is much more complicated an involves stress mapping of the structure and many many layup schedules. It may include some items of internal furniture for stiffness but not necessarily. Both the approach you have described and this method are way beyond the economics of production builders.

[catsketcher]

NOt every piece of furniture would be used as a stiffener in a custom composite boat, but those around the hull sides and under floor should if you want the strongest, lightest and stiffest solution. Gluing and tabbing hull side furniture reduces panel size, reduces flexing, reduces panel stress, reduces needed laminate, reduces weight, reduces squeaking and annoying noise, plus you can close the doors no matter what the boat is doing. Bridgedeck stuff and small furniture that can't bridge the gaps between large structural members is much less useful and could cause a stress concentration, but those necessary cabinets and cupboards that go from one bulkhead to another are very helpful in improving stiffness and reducing weight. Going monocoque is usually used to make things lighter, but by using interior furniture where possible you can make the structure lighter and stiffer than by ensuring that all loads go through an unsupported skin alone. I have been in cats that have massive unsupported hull sides and I think "Why didn't they run a small shelf along the side and reduce laminate weight and add heaps of stiffness AND get some extra storage?"

I have done this many times with my cats - having hull sides that stiffen dramatically when I install the furniture, sub floors and watertight bulkheads and other framelike additions. The ability for simple interior cabinetry to dramatically improve a boat's structural integrity is something I have seen many times in the years I have been building.

As I learn more about how production multis are made, I am getting a better understanding of why some people have issues with jacking their much heavier cats than mine at certain spots, and why there are some cats that can't sit on their keels (but why would you ever buy one), or be jacked up when on the hard at multiple spots. I find it hard to fathom why anyone would build a cat to have these issues but I can see that many cats are a little weak for their weight but it has to be tied into how they are designed and built. But I am flummoxed as to how this is accepted by clients.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

OK what is the price for one of these say the CM 46 vs a Lagoon 46 fully optioned. ?


https://currentmarine.co.za/

CM46 800K€ to 1M€

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

That is a kit boat.

Can be sold as a kit, or not.
600K$ :
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/202...44-sc-7751250/

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by ozolli

Can be sold as a kit, or not.
600K$ :
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/202...44-sc-7751250/

Wow. They should outsell Lagoons 10:1 then. If not why not?

[Kinkircating]

Part of the problem is people buying these things are not experts and don’t do the due diligence. They simply go to a boat show and superficially have a look around. They then compare the price of the NEEL to a proper built boat which is typically double and say “wow, what a great value”. When in fact it’s the boat that is 2X the cost that truly represents value because they are typically built in parts of the world with lower labor costs.

If NEEL’s having major show stopper quality issues are a surprise to you after purchasing you simply never bothered doing a Google search or talking with a trusted industry expert. That’s on the consumer, I’m confident NEEL didn’t say “our boats are glassed and tabbed to be one homogeneous structure”. They would have said,, yep we slap a bunch of glue in there, and given you some cockamamie reasons why it’s just as good. To be fair, this is also what Seawind & Outremer do as well, so it’s not uncommon it’s just a way they reduce their manufacturing costs to sell more boats.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Wow. They should outsell Lagoons 10:1 then. If not why not?

The Max Cruise is a performance oriented 44' catamaran with all the compromises that entails. It will never sell 1:10 of a Lagoon.

But I do think the $600k price listed in the ad is their old 2022 number. I believe starting has risen to closer to $700k.

[Yihang]

Just saw this on the new 43. Maybe its not a structural bulkhead?

[gsuescum]

Originally Posted by beta600

check it out after 4 years,,,

How can we see this video?

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

This is just totally wrong, why would you need to do repairs if the boat is built properly? The reason custom cats use interior furniture for load carrying is because it is lighter, stronger, noiseless and stiffer - all really good outcomes. The reason you don't do it is because of cost of labour. It is not a benefit in any other way.

Saying the "right way of building a cat with flexible joints" is again totally false. It is one way to build a cat, that will be heavier because the hull needs more laminate, squeak more, flex more and be quicker to make. It doesn't make it right, it just makes it cheaper and heavier. Bonding even a very thin 5mm plywood cupboard to a hull skin will make the hull skin incredibly stiff and much better able to cope with sailing loads. My sub floors on my 4000kg 38ft cat are made from 5mm plywood. These webs mean that you can jack the boat anywhere along its centreline - anywhere, from the bow to the stern, all because the 5mm ply is part of an epoxy glued AND tabbed underfoor structure. It took me a while to build it but man is it strong and stiff and useful for dividing the bilge.

Production builders may choose not to bond interior structures to the hull using epoxy glue and tabbing, but they do not do it because it is a "better" build method - it is cheaper, which makes it better for those who don't mind extra weight, squeaking and flexibility. But for a better engineering solution, constructing the interior from engineered materials that assist the structure to cope with loads is stronger, lighter and stiffer but will take more labour.

cheers

Phil

Well Lagoon Could build it that way but I'm sure they would find a justification to use mdf

[Amouage]

Totally agree.

At the same time Yacht Builders simply cannot compromise on sea worthiness and safety. Its like buying a cheap car: "oh the brakes don't work".

Normative's i.e. directives (Ocean Class A / B etc.) are not conclusive, as based on that one could do an ocean crossing on ANY production boats. There will be only a couple of yachts I would trust it to and still you are only approx. 50 ft of hull protecting your life against the elements, which can and will turn BIG at some point.

The loads on the rig and hull are massive. You need to take a yacht that does not crack under pressure. Quality comes with a engineering level and a cost.

[finleyg]

Originally Posted by gsuescum

How can we see this video?

Yes, It shows up as private - I'd like to review. I've sailed a Neel 45 - in "spicy" weather, didn't have any movement or excess noise that would indicate structural probs.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by finleyg

Yes, It shows up as private - I'd like to review. I've sailed a Neel 45 - in "spicy" weather, didn't have any movement or excess noise that would indicate structural probs.

Well then the neel.45 was already reapired through and most fixed by the owner or you had just luck.
The stairs into the hull collapsed under me on the boat show in Cannes when viewing the neel 45 and the product quality horrible.
But i have to admit on neel 45 it really got better and the 45 is the only Neel thats constructed well, what caused the problems was production not according to certified plans. I know 2 owners you fixed all after they had it for 2 years for about 50k basically cut every glue out on every structural parts and relaminated with biaxial mats and epoxy (done the same on my Lavezzi when one bow got hit by a pyramid rough wave, all bulkheads and stringers beside 1 broke more or less clean of the hull...the one not had 1mm glue as speced, the rest up to 2.5cm thickness)
These neel 45 are good ones and if the owner properly fix the production flaws are good boats to buy, what came after is a nightmare from construction and production...the 51 being the worst of all, know 2 neel 51 which at the end ripped the whole electric out and made new for >100k as they had one gremlin after the other in 3 years, one of them i spend lockdown in spain on the same pontoon 3 boats next too me and saw the desaster in person over 6 month. Then the 51 court case where belgian court stated 51 is misscontructed and unseaworty plus this vessel not produced according to certified plan and hardly meets cat B means is actually cat C....so costal and lake boat that hardly can withstand higher sea states. Thats really say it all.