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Sparx · 05-02-2018, 09:33

Anyone have experience with Triradial Cut Carbon sails?

I am thinking of putting these on a fast cruising cat. Looking for insights relating to the sails holding up in cruising use. Also thoughts on repairs by a capable owner.

sailjumanji · 05-02-2018, 16:31

We used carbon sails on our Corsair 28R trimaran, racing from 2004-07. They were very stiff, held their shape extremely well. We had a 16:1 fine purchase on the mainsheet, and needed it to get the sail tight and flat - to get the most speed out of it upwind. I can't comment on longevity though, as we typically stowed the sail out of the weather when not in use. We were racers. The boat also was trailer sailed, so the bottom stayed perfect as well.

I did see some carbon sails that were just covered on the boom, and like most laminate sails, they suffered from mildew. Also, carbon is not UV resistant, so you will need a very good sail cover.

I don't have a picture of those sails, but as for triradial cut, this is a pic of my current Barracouta main that is triradial, Pentex. It's about nine years old now, and still has very good shape. I use a Quantum stack pack that is lined with vinyl on most of it, as well as covered by Sunbrella. Plus Barracouta treated it with a mildewcide. Both of those supposedly helped ward off the dreaded mildew.

Oh, and our Seawind cat doesn't like the main anywhere near as tight as we trimmed on the Corsair. A little open on the top when pointing high to windward, and even a little twist once we crack off the weather just a bit. Its a noticeable difference when you go from too tight to just right!

Good luck in your decision. We are likely trading up to a Seawind 1160 Lite, and sail material of choice at the moment is Dimension Polyant Pro Radial Dacron in a tri-radial cut. Sail material specs appear to be similar to strength and stretch of a polyester laminate, but without the laminate sail mildew issues and UV breakdown. They are priced a bit higher than polyester laminate, but less than Hydronet Spectra weave. But I am still thinking this one over.

Sparx · 05-02-2018, 17:14

Sailjumanji, thanks for the insights. I too have experienced the perfect sweet spot with just the right combination of traveler and sheet. That Barracouta main is a good example of a well done triradial.

The sails I am looking at are a woven taffeta/carbon/woven taffeta sandwich. I am hearing this profile is relatively new and nobody has 10 years, or even 5 years experience with profile. Plans are for these sails to live on the boom in a Mack Stackpack. It has been a long time since I bought tech sails, and much has changed.

sailjumanji · 05-02-2018, 17:28

Where are you, and who is making the sails? I know the Seawind 1190's are sporting Lite Skin sails as standard, that I think are carbon based. Dimension Polyant. With daggerboards, foil rudders and taller mast, they are a performance version of the 1160 Lite.

Sparx · 05-02-2018, 17:41

I am in Virginia USA, with cruising grounds from Maine to the Bahamas. I have been talking with Calvert Sails about light skin carbon sails, possibly the same as you mention for the Seawinds. I am planning to put the sails on a Maine Cat 38 with daggerboards, foil rudders, lifting outboards... similar concept to the Seawind 1190. Good to see Seawind came to a similar decision.

Boatguy30 · 05-02-2018, 18:21

For true cruising carbon would be a horrible mistake unless tour happy to buy sails every several years. They do hold their shape well, but overall longevity is very short.

On a multi under 40' I personally would go with quality dacron. The loads just don't really justify a higher tech material. But no doubt, this will be a contrary opinion.

rom · 06-02-2018, 02:30

Very interesting comments sailjumanji ! And a nice mainsail ! I thought tri-radial cut was good for downwind sails but not so much for flat sails, did I misunderstand ?

sailjumanji · 06-02-2018, 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rom

Very interesting comments sailjumanji ! And a nice mainsail ! I thought tri-radial cut was good for downwind sails but not so much for flat sails, did I misunderstand ?

Maybe so. I think tri radial cut is just to align the fabric to the load. I think more panels allows more shape to be built in. But I am not a sailmaker!

Boatguy30 · 06-02-2018, 07:22

It’s purely a load thing has nothing to do with shape, but does help long term shape holding. Multihull sails have less chamber than mono so no reason you’d need a special consideration there anyway.

Rom is perhaps thiniking of triradial spinnaker layout as was a big deal when they figured that out in maybe early 70s?

**Dockhead** · 06-02-2018, 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

For true cruising carbon would be a horrible mistake unless tour happy to buy sails every several years. They do hold their shape well, but overall longevity is very short.

On a multi under 40' I personally would go with quality dacron. The loads just don't really justify a higher tech material. But no doubt, this will be a contrary opinion.

Yep, and here's the contrary opinion!

I am starting my fourth year on a set of triradial carbon sails, made by a quality local loft using Bainbridge autoclaved carbon/technora laminate. They were not cheap!

But I now have over 10,000 miles on them, and they are still LIKE NEW, with no detectable change in the shape, no sign of mold or delamination, no signs of wear whatsoever. The sailmaker has clients with 30,000 miles on similar sails and still in good condition.

I am extremely pleased with them. I was also skeptical about carbon, but my sailmaker convinced me that the new carbon materials are very hard wearing and long lasting, and he was right.

I have the exact same sails as are fitted by Swan to their Swan 60 racing/cruising boats.

It helps that I have in-mast furling, which is easier on the mainsail, rolling it up in storage out of the sun instead of creasing it. So with normal full batten sail, YMMV, but I still think they will be very durable.

I will never have another Dacron sail again as long as I live -- if I can help it. Dacron starts losing its shape on the first day. I would have been happy with these sails if I had only gotten 10,000 miles out of them, but I will for sure get at least another 10,000 miles, if not more, which means they will last at least as long as quality Dacron sails, but with an excellent wing shape over their whole lives, which is impossible with Dacron. With this kind of lifetime, these sails are not really as expensive as I thought they were when I ordered them.

They are covered in taffeta on both sides, which unfortunately makes them heavier, but this is probably a good idea for cruising sails as they give a lot of protection against UV and chafing.

Boatguy30 is right that the loads on a sub-40 foot cat might not REQUIRE such sails, but I would think that any cat is going to be harder on the sails because of the much higher initial stability compared to monos. I would not go with Dacron, personally.

Stumble · 06-02-2018, 11:39

Carbon is one option, the other is to talk to North about their 3di sails. Either are lightyears ahead of Dacron and will last.

Carbon btw is pretty much impervious to UV radiation. The glue however may not be, so you need to know what the loft is using.

catsketcher · 06-02-2018, 12:01

Gday Boatguy and Rom

The reason tri radial sails are made that way is to align the fibres with the loading withing the sail. It did start with kites in the 70s with the star cut, the radial head and then tri radial. Then after Australia 2 did it stuff in 1983 with radial cut working sails everyone saw the light. Multis with their large roach mains are especially suited to radial construction, otherwise some terrible things can happen to a fat headed or square top like sail. A friend had a square top made out of crosscut and its head was all wrong as the loading went across the bias of the cloth. Radial construction allows the sailmaker to get the warp of the fabric aligned almost exactly with the loading.

For holding shape I really like radial sails. Like Sailjumanji I have a cruise laminate main which is still really nice after 17 years. The crosscut jib is not so good and gets very full in a bit of breeze, which is not what I want.

I am interested in carbon or other sails. At the moment the shape of the radial cruise laminate main is darn good for an old sail so I am likely to go that way again, just this time I will do the genoa as well in cruise laminate too.

Just a note - be sure you sit down and ask the sailmaker about radial construction and reefing. I just blew out my second reef after the local guy serviced my old main. He put a hinge point in the leech with three layers straight to one and then did not help the loads out of the reef and across the warp cloth. A guy in Tassie did a good job for me down there. So be careful when reefed and the sail gets a bit older as the loads are different when sail is shortened.

cheers

Phil

thinwater · 06-02-2018, 12:17

Curiously no one spoke to repairs. I've had both laminate and polyester.

Polyester is mostly chafe and restitching. If it tears it was probably old, but the fix is just to sew on a big patch.

Laminates have more of a tendency to be perfect... and then bang. Sometimes there is nothing to repair, particularly if age related. Mostly you watch out for the start of delamination. Sometimes the laminated fails parallel to the fibers; these are easy to fix with a glued patch (not just any glue either). But the answer is glue and some extras cloth. Sewing is possible, but you must reinforce the stitched area with either Kevlar scrim or sail repair tape before swing. Otherwise, you just made a "tear here" line. So you have some new methods to learn, most of which are not in a book.

If I were sailing far from home, I'd go with top notch polyester sails. They will hold shape pretty well, will not let you down, and can be fixed. And while it may be a "performance" cat, I'd be surprised if in cruising mode it was really that fast up wind. Off the wind shape doesn't matter as much.

rom · 06-02-2018, 14:04

Lots of good information here ! as catsketcher say, I think it is important to have a talk with the sailmaker, whichever fabric you choose. I bought a 4000+ EUR genoa from North summer 2016, was called something 200 (triradial btw !). Shape is still great but cut was wrong from the start ... I am following this thread with interest as I will hvae to change my mainsail within 2 years I guess. Maybe a little OT but I think my mainsail is responsible for too much weather helm and I am jealous of that flat mainsail sailjumanji has !!

Sparx, you did not say, what cat do you have that deserve carbon sails ?