Upgrading a Charter Cat

[islandflyer]

Thought i'd add: massive jugs are mine, not the girlfriends.

[cruising Jim]

I am seriously considering an ex Moorings Leopard 47 for a circumnavigation, I see you have just purchased one, Did you manage to get a discount on the broker price? They seem a bit bullish about taking offers ! I hope to fly out in the next couple of weeks to view one in particular, what sort of condition was yours in ? I am told they are in 'good' condition.

Hope I have sent this to the correct person ( just registered)

[Eleven]

I like the idea of additional tappings on the water maker. I'm planning on rainwater collection (UK OK) as much easier to clean up for drinking and much cheaper to use for washing. And there's always the sea of course but you know what happens then.
Howcome the water stays in the dink while you fall in the water?
Anyway sea water to rain tank, rainwater to drinking tank seems best by far.
There are now some water driven genny's that seem a good idea if you are actually sailing much, certainly losing a knot for a couple of hours to drive water maker is a good bet and very quiet and carbon free and so on. Evening/night watch, boat a bit slower, everything relaxed and full tanks and batteries for the morning.

[Erikte]

concerning compressors;

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nboard-31.html

look at both pages

[olliric]

Originally Posted by Strygaldwir

Bil recommended 24 volt panels to me a while ago. I got the BP 165 watt panels. I love them! I can't say enough good things about them, except perhaps the cost and shipping. Bought them off the internet. Careful of undisclosed shipping!!! You need a solar controller to step the voltage down to 12 volt. I use an Outback MX60. They have the best reputation out there in solar land. Great units. I have a cat also, mounted the panels above the dinghy davits.

I have the Air X marine. I would not recommend it. The output is low in most circumstances. The four winds is a better power/noise solution.

I have a system based on the Spectra watermakers. Spectra is an excellant company, makes great products and has outstanding service. There units are generally the most energy efficient out there. There older 380 system produces about 1 gallon per amp-hour. They, and ALL watermakers are expensive though. I do recommend them though. We love ours!

We have twin Frigoboat units with keel coolers and electronic thermostat and control. I can't recommend them. Their power consumption is excellant. Ours have not held up well in the marine environment and our dealer was not very helpful in standing behind their product.

I am not sure I agree with bill on the winlink/sailmail. If you are a ham, it makes a lot of sense. If you are not, when you start combining the cost of the pactor modem ($800-$1100) with winlink ($300/year), a satellite phone might provide better functionality at comprable cost. We do LOVE the SSB though. Major pain to install though.

ALL of the folks who have the combo washer/dryer that we have talked to say "ditch the dryer part", "useless" ... this was only 6 couples if I recall correctly. But when I get that many cruisers to agree on a thing, I listened. ALL loved the washer though. Make sure you get a higher capacity watermaker to support it.

Gensets arre heavy, expensive devices. Not very cost effective way of generating electricity. But, if you're talking washer/dryer/watermaker probably the only way to go. If you do go genset, I'd probably analyze the 12v watermaker a bit. The 110v water makers might be a better choice.

Have lots of fun and lots of $$$$ I would not be surprised at going through $50k with the options you are considering.


Hey Bil, aren't you up in Maryland now?

Keith

I am designing the systems for a 50' performance cat with live aboard amenities for tropical cruising. I would love to hear more details on the solar array set up you have and also on the Frigoboat fridge and freezer problems.
Here is the preliminary spec. Being a performance cat, weight limitation is a major concern.
*250 Ah 24v AGM house batteries.
*2x1500w 230/24v stackable inverter charger (35A) combi
*1 high output 24v 75A belt driven alternator (port)
*1 Yanmar AC generator (between one main engine block and gearbox) 230V 6Kw (KMG65E) (stbd)
*3x210w 24v Kyocera solar panels in series and MPPT controller (Outback 60 may be too big)
* Separate fridge and freezer: 2 x Frigoboat Danfoss BD50 compressors, keel condensers and bendable evaporators.
* 2x16500btu air conditioners
* 120 l/h, 230 v, 1600 w watermaker (energy recovery Spectra like systems no needed, too expensive and more complicated)
* 24v SSB radio (if I can find it!!)
* 24/12v 60A converter for the 12v system (cabin lighting and stereo)
* Multivoltage isolation transformer to provide international shore supply and ground protection.

With this system I hope to achieve the following.
*Minimun weight by using main engine driven 230 AC generator (only 40Kg for 6 Kw) a 24v system (less than half wiring weight), small house battery in conjunction with large solar panels.
*Triple level of redundancy. The solar, AC gen/inverter/charger, 12v alternator provide 3 power supplies.
*The rather small battery house bank and 630W solar should be enough to sustain the equivalent of a 12v 200/250 Ah per day consumption. Most sunny days at the anchor or undersail in the day should not be necessary to run the engine.
*Every 2 o 3 days the engine with the AC generator can be run to make water and charge batteries if needed.
*In emergency the 3000w inverters can feed the watermaker while the solar array and the main engine driven 12V alternator supply the batteries.
*Air conditioning can be run on shore power or when the main engine AC gen is running (at the anchor under way).
I would appreciate comments, I need a "reality check"
Cheers

[YOGAO]

Olliric,

Just a few first impressions for your "reality check".

*More batteries. With all the stuff you have listed, you will suck 125A out before you have finished breakfast.

*More solar panels. Remember that most things are actually running off the batteries. Solar panels, alternators, etc feed the batteries, not the appliances.

*Solar output can really be reduced drastically when sailing due to shading of the panels by the sails.

*Put a high output alternator on each engine. This will allow you to get charging from either engine and keep the engine hours equal. Having only 1 hi-ouput alt is a sure guarantee that either the engine or the alternator will "fail" just when you need it most.

*AC is not needed when at anchor (if so, you should think about re-designing the ventilation options)

* Add at least 1 QUIET wind generator. The "tropics" have a lot of wind and you will really enjoy waking up in the AM with your batteries topped up.

Keep us posted.

Originally Posted by olliric

I am designing the systems for a 50' performance cat with live aboard amenities for tropical cruising. I would love to hear more details on the solar array set up you have and also on the Frigoboat fridge and freezer problems.
Here is the preliminary spec. Being a performance cat, weight limitation is a major concern.
*250 Ah 24v AGM house batteries.
*2x1500w 230/24v stackable inverter charger (35A) combi
*1 high output 24v 75A belt driven alternator (port)
*1 Yanmar AC generator (between one main engine block and gearbox) 230V 6Kw (KMG65E) (stbd)
*3x210w 24v Kyocera solar panels in series and MPPT controller (Outback 60 may be too big)
* Separate fridge and freezer: 2 x Frigoboat Danfoss BD50 compressors, keel condensers and bendable evaporators.
* 2x16500btu air conditioners
* 120 l/h, 230 v, 1600 w watermaker (energy recovery Spectra like systems no needed, too expensive and more complicated)
* 24v SSB radio (if I can find it!!)
* 24/12v 60A converter for the 12v system (cabin lighting and stereo)
* Multivoltage isolation transformer to provide international shore supply and ground protection.

With this system I hope to achieve the following.
*Minimun weight by using main engine driven 230 AC generator (only 40Kg for 6 Kw) a 24v system (less than half wiring weight), small house battery in conjunction with large solar panels.
*Triple level of redundancy. The solar, AC gen/inverter/charger, 12v alternator provide 3 power supplies.
*The rather small battery house bank and 630W solar should be enough to sustain the equivalent of a 12v 200/250 Ah per day consumption. Most sunny days at the anchor or undersail in the day should not be necessary to run the engine.
*Every 2 o 3 days the engine with the AC generator can be run to make water and charge batteries if needed.
*In emergency the 3000w inverters can feed the watermaker while the solar array and the main engine driven 12V alternator supply the batteries.
*Air conditioning can be run on shore power or when the main engine AC gen is running (at the anchor under way).
I would appreciate comments, I need a "reality check"
Cheers

[olliric]

Originally Posted by YOGAO

Just a few first impressions for your "reality check".
*More batteries. With all the stuff you have listed, you will suck 125A out before you have finished breakfast.

I would love to add batteries, it's cheap and simple. However 250 Ah 24v equates to 500 Ah 12 volts and weight an amazing 150 Kg. I am considering adding an extra 50 Ah 24V though. I have a lot gear on the supply side but not much on the consumer side. The biggest draw will be the top loading custom fridge and freezer which will be 50 Ah 24v per day total. The rest will be a laptop, lighting, 10 min of toaster in the morning music and the odd water pump. I will not have big suckers like electric stove, microwave and electric winches (maybe one). I don't see using more than 125 Ah/day (250 at 12v) on the average day.
I have lived aboard a boat with 500Ah 12v and only one 150A alternator and we were to run the engine 1 to 2 h per day.

Originally Posted by YOGAO

More solar panels. Remember that most things are actually running off the batteries. Solar panels, alternators, etc feed the batteries, not the appliances.

I may go for 5x135W 12v instead. That will give me an extra 45W. In the tropics in a sunny day and no shading (see link for field proof: Solar Panels) they should produce enough to run the boat in most circumstances (at least 250 Ah/day at 12V). Remember, if for instance you have a 20A load and a 30A charging (whatever it may be from) you are actually still charging (10A). You are actually running gear off the solar panel if their output is higher than the load. Both loads and charging are connected to the same battery poles

Originally Posted by YOGAO

Solar output can really be reduced drastically when sailing due to shading of the panels by the sails.

I agree but I am planning to put all the panels across above the dinghy davits, either just above it or way high in line with cockpit roof, not under the boom. I'll have no antennas, radar or anything higher than the panels (except the boom that will be forward of the array). In the tropics in either hemispheres if you are at the anchor in the prevailing trade winds and the panels are aft of the boom you should have no shading issues. Shading will be an issue if you are sailing in the direction of the sun but that inshore is not a good practice anyway do to the lack of visibility below the surface.

Originally Posted by YOGAO

Put a high output alternator on each engine. This will allow you to get charging from either engine and keep the engine hours equal. Having only 1 hi-ouput alt is a sure guarantee that either the engine or the alternator will "fail" just when you need it most.

I do have a big alternator on each engine. The difference is that the 230V AC one has to go through the inverter charger to charge the battery instead of a voltage regulator as for the 24v alternator. Both engines will be charging the batteries at the same rate (70A 24v). From the redundacy point of you, the AC gen is probably more relaiable and also the inverters will be two adding to redundancy. My design is triple redundant which is the highest level of redundancy found at sea. The ultradeep water drilling ship I work on is triple redundant on the station keeping and few other critical systems. We drill holes at 560K USD/day. The operation of my yacht will not be that critical. As far as the running hours, in the professional engineering field we always want to have different running hours on the engines or any other equipment. That again is to improve redundacy, if the engines have the same hours will be a lot more likely to fail one after the other, then you are in trouble! It is best to keep one engine newer.

Originally Posted by YOGAO

Add at least 1 QUIET wind generator. The "tropics" have a lot of wind and you will really enjoy waking up in the AM with your batteries topped up.

That sounds like a good proposition. However, there are 2 reasons I will not have the wind generator. One is that I simply hate the noise even from the quietest one (I have heard them all I am afraid) and even from the other boats close by. That noise is totally cruising anticlimatic, I spend half of my life in one of the noisiest place on the planet so I look forward to silence.
The second reason is the one you mentioned before: shading. The best spot for a windgen is near the transom and that's were my panels will be, it is likely to create more problems than benefits.

Cheers

[SailFastTri]

Make sure you have a diode installed on the positive output of each solar panel (if your individual panels don't come with one built-in to the output). Otherwise a panel in a shadow will draw power from an unshaded one. You should also install a water-resistant junction box where the multiple panels are interconnected to the single wire leading to the controller (controller is mounted below decks).

Within the junction box you should use a screw-down terminal strip with separate screw for for each connection. The screw terminals will make it easy to isolate panels for testing if you suspect one is not putting out what it should. That's also where to insert your diodes. Diodes have solid leads so they must be soldered to the positive wire and screw terminal, which is in-turn screwed to the terminal strip. It all makes for an orderly and easily serviced electrical installation. (You should not use a diode on the negative lead, only the positive lead is required.) Ask your solar panel supplier about the diodes.

Other considerations for your electrical installation include a low-voltage disconnect circuit for your house bank, so refrigeration doesn't ruin your batteries when you leave the boat, and a battery monitor (which act as a "fuel gage" for your batteries).

There are numerous battery monitors. I have been been very happy with Xantrex's XBM but not happy with the Xantrex Link 2000. (The Link 2000 emitted too much RF interference that affects VHF band and possibly others, but the XBM does not have that issue). I find there is no need for the extra expense of the multi-bank monitors. A simple voltage meter is sufficient for engine battery status, but the house bank is important to monitor more closely.

[olliric]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Make sure you have a diode installed on the positive output of each solar panel (if your individual panels don't come with one built-in to the output). Otherwise a panel in a shadow will draw power from an unshaded one. You should also install a water-resistant junction box where the multiple panels are interconnected to the single wire leading to the controller (controller is mounted below decks).

Within the junction box you should use a screw-down terminal strip with separate screw for for each connection. The screw terminals will make it easy to isolate panels for testing if you suspect one is not putting out what it should. That's also where to insert your diodes. Diodes have solid leads so they must be soldered to the positive wire and screw terminal, which is in-turn screwed to the terminal strip. It all makes for an orderly and easily serviced electrical installation. (You should not use a diode on the negative lead, only the positive lead is required.) Ask your solar panel supplier about the diodes.

Other considerations for your electrical installation include a low-voltage disconnect circuit for your house bank, so refrigeration doesn't ruin your batteries when you leave the boat, and a battery monitor (which act as a "fuel gage" for your batteries).

There are numerous battery monitors. I have been been very happy with Xantrex's XBM but not happy with the Xantrex Link 2000. (The Link 2000 emitted too much RF interference that affects VHF band and possibly others, but the XBM does not have that issue). I find there is no need for the extra expense of the multi-bank monitors. A simple voltage meter is sufficient for engine battery status, but the house bank is important to monitor more closely.

Thanks for the tips.
Kyocera panels have a 2 or 3 bypass diodes already. For connecting the panels I am thinking to put them in series to get a high voltage, low copper loss and small diameter wiring. The MPPT regulator (Outback 60) can handle the high voltage. Either 5x135W 12V or 3x210W 24v, I am not sure if the 24v ones give an advantage.
Battery disconnect is a must and so is the battery monitor. I am thinking to put all the major electrical/electonic gear (inverters, monitor, ins. transformer, DC to DC converter etc.) in a closed cabinet with ventilation and farady cage construction. This way I should eliminate the RFI and protect the equipment in case of lighting.

[roverhi]

Why don't you get a gasoline powered compressor and ditch the genset?? Also, have seen home brew compressors belted off the engine. Don't know if there are any commercially available units, though.
Aloha
Peter O.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by olliric

Thanks for the tips.
Kyocera panels have a 2 or 3 bypass diodes already. For connecting the panels I am thinking to put them in series to get a high voltage, low copper loss and small diameter wiring. The MPPT regulator (Outback 60) can handle the high voltage. Either 5x135W 12V or 3x210W 24v, I am not sure if the 24v ones give an advantage.
Battery disconnect is a must and so is the battery monitor. I am thinking to put all the major electrical/electonic gear (inverters, monitor, ins. transformer, DC to DC converter etc.) in a closed cabinet with ventilation and farady cage construction. This way I should eliminate the RFI and protect the equipment in case of lighting.

I haven't researched issues with series configuration so my questions are really questions: Even if your controller can handle the high voltage, can your panels?

The problem you solve if you put them in series might be less of a problem than the ones you will create: In series the disadvantages are that a failure in one panel will affect all, and any shadow on one panel from the rigging or sails will draw down the entire system (and create a hot-spot in the shaded portion of the panel).

Also, if you have 5x12v or 3x24v you will have no-load combined PV voltages much higher than 100vdc. (12v PV panels typically have no-load nominal voltages around 19-21v each). In reading elsewhere about electric-drive boats there are discussions touching on safety issues in dealing with high voltage DC (risk of arcing) that require special engineering. Have you consulted an engineer who has knowledge in that area?

For RF, you might also need to add ferrites to the wires in/out of your metal box.

As for lightning, the Faraday cage will not protect your electronics if the lighting flash comes in on the wire. A Faraday cage will only protect isolated systems. My boat was struck last year and the one thing I know for certain is that anyone who thinks they can control side-flashes is preaching religion, and neither faith nor bonding will protect 100% from lightning.... to sum it up: The damage was random and although the hull was not damaged, much of the electronics were.

BTW my 6 solar panels and controller weren't affected, and they have no special protection measures.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

snip
The problem you solve if you put them in series might be less of a problem than the ones you will create: In series the disadvantages are that a failure in one panel will affect all, and any shadow on one panel from the rigging or sails will draw down the entire system (and create a hot-spot in the shaded portion of the panel).

Also, if you have 5x12v or 3x24v you will have no-load combined PV voltages much higher than 100vdc. (12v PV panels typically have no-load nominal voltages around 19-21v each). In reading elsewhere about electric-drive boats there are discussions touching on safety issues in dealing with high voltage DC (risk of arcing) that require special engineering. Have you consulted an engineer who has knowledge in that area?
snip

Answering some of my own questions: I looked in the Kyocera panel guide and maximum system voltage is 600v. Open circuit voltage on the 12v units is 21.5 per panel. Again, I think you should look into any safety considerations with high DC voltage. Bypass diodes should handle shading issues.

[svcattales]

Boat presently has a conventional collapsible bimini. Thinking of removing and installing a fixed aluminum (boat yard recommends SS steel) frame for mounting solar panels.
Present dingy hoist is badly designed non functional and in the charter fleet never used, thinking of installing an arch davit. Opinions on pros cons SS steel v alum for fixed bimini plus arch.

We removed the folding bimini frame and s/s davits from our ex-charter boat and replaced them with custom aluminum bimini frame and radar arch. After three years of use, we are still very happy with both and I believe the aluminum is lighter and doesn't rust like s/s. Both are very stong and I stood in the dinghy hanging from the arch to mount all the hardware.

The arch is a multi-functional platform for dinghy lift, solar panel, radar scanner, wind generator, tv antenna, SSB whip antenna, and GPS antenna. It puts everything out of the way and we can leave the engine on the dinghy without any concern about weight.

The bimini frame gives us better visibilty port and starboard and also serves as a mount for 2 165 watt solar panels. We did our own design and have full sun/rain protection at the helm and clear strata glass window which fold up in hot weather. See pics

[svcattales]

trying again with pics

[olliric]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Answering some of my own questions: I looked in the Kyocera panel guide and maximum system voltage is 600v. Open circuit voltage on the 12v units is 21.5 per panel. Again, I think you should look into any safety considerations with high DC voltage. Bypass diodes should handle shading issues.

Kyocera panels are meant to be connected in series, the leads are male and female. On the boat I'll have 230v AC anyway so the 100v DC from the solar will not be a big concern. I think the 12v option will be better because it will deliver an extra 45W and give more redundancy (5 panels instead of 3).

As for lightning protection I agree that lightning is an extremely random event both in how it occurs and result/damage. Although there is no 100% protection, somethings can be done to limit the damage. Here is my approach for a cat:
-Aluminum mast with removable strikeshield CSSB Lightning Protection System grounding and dissipator led to the water through a fiberglass pipe as close to the mast as possible.
-An air terminal installed on top of the mast. LRAT Air Terminals
-No conductive syntetic standing rigging (Dynex Dux) so the lightning will most likely take the path of least resistance to the water (via the air terminal, mast, grounding wire and dissipator.
-Syntetic thruhulls.
-Main electric equipment located in a Faraday cage cabinet with quick disconnect connectors or switches installed outside. The cage will be made of cored fiberglass panels and lined with copper mesh.
The faraday cabinet idea came from witnessing the limited damage that occurs when ships are struck by lightning. I believe that one of the reasons that the damage tend to be less is because on ships all electrical/electronic equipment is installed in metal cabinets that act as faraday cages. I have not research the feaseabilty of it yet especially regarding the ability to disconnect the equipment when a lightning storm approches. However, it seems to me the only way to try to contain damage.