Upgrading from a Lagoon 410 for a bit more pace?

[LuvSun]

yep. there is actually plenty of performance cats thats still provide the large amounts of living space.


But they can be very costly.

One I like is the McConaghy MC60, uses 40% carbon, and a centreboard. But no way I could afford it and its too big for me haha.

I might go back to work and save. :-)

[cuffy]

Have you thought about upgrading your 410??
Big square top main, J0 and big asymetric will take you much further down range (wind speed) and perhaps make top end a little more exciting!!
You will never get the top end speeds of performance orientated cats but sailing quicker in the low wind ranges is fun and can still give you a buzz.
We managed 100 nm in 11.5 hrs this summer in the med and although pretty easy in a performance cat was still exciting in our boat.

[ozsailer]

G'day Luvsun,
as someone who has owned a Lagoon 410 for some years then upgraded I think I can offer some advise on what we found when doing this. Before I go into detail I was surprised about your water storage. Our 2004 model 410 had two tanks of 450 litres each for a total of 900 litres of water. This was common in most 410s I looked at. What was short was the fuel with only 100 litres of fuel per tank (pt and stb tank) I regularly carried a spare 100 litres when cruising. When sailing we regularly sailed at between 8 to 10 knots in fifteen to twenty knots of wind on a beam reach. Even on a shy reach we maintained healthy speed. With 20 to 25 knots behind us and a following see it was easy to maintain speeds of 10 to 14 knots. We have topped out at 17.5 knots surfing a wave but I really don't want to do that again. In saying that the boat did it with ease and no sign of burying the bow. ( for those doubting it I can produce photos )
We upgraded to a Lagoon 440 for reasons of comfort more than anything else and not to compromise on what we already had. With the island style bed in the owners cabin and greater room it has proved to be a great decision. The 440 also sails very well and is quicker than the 410 but in my opinion the 410 was better down wind with the waves behind her. Are there faster boats than the 440, absolutely but while the 440 has speed that is acceptable to us, it may not be acceptable to others. The boat also meets many other things that we required that were not on other boats.
There is no doubt the Seawind 1160 is a good boat but check the load capacity and there is a large difference between many of the multihulls out there. There is no doubt our 440 is a heavy boat but she loses little in performance when loaded for cruising as this is what she is designed to do as was the 410.
I see you were considering the Jenneau 42 DS, great boat and one at the top of our list for monos. I can assure you this boat is slower than the 410 and you will lose a lot of room. We have friends who own one and they advise they cruise around 6 knots topping out at 7 to 7.5 knots. They are very experienced sailors.
As always there is a lot of very good advise from on this site but do your homework and make sure you are comparing apples with apples.


Greg H
Lagoon 440
Blue Pointer
Lake Macquarie Aus.

[LuvSun]

Thanks Greg.

Ill stick to cats on here as ive only just started looking at tris.

The way I see it there are 4 cat categories.

1. One that designed to suck the money straight from your bank via your wifes eyes when she sees the galley and salon. Its heavy but its beautiful.

2. Similar to above but has really well designed sailing features, which enable it to perform slightly better (thats where I fit the lagoon 410).

3. Similar to 1, they still look stunning, have a really nice galley and salon and plenty of storage, but they are performance orientated. They use materials like carbon fibre, the cores use new technology, the cabintry is made from lighter materials, the sails are very aggressive, they run engines that use much less fuel and require smaller fuel tanks, possibly hold less water tanks as well due to there being a water maker, basically everything is designed to look nice but be as light weight as possible. These are usually around 12 ton for a 440 vs 16 ton for the 410. Some use dagger boards. These are generally pricier and justifiably so. But I think over time it will become the focus of cats, as 1 is not sustainable to anyone other than those that dont know how to sail.

4. Outright match racing cats. No cabin, just a cockpit, speed speed.

I think Im looking to upgrade to 3. There are some like some Catana's, Seawind etc that kind of sit right in the middle of 2 and 3 as well, but its kind of hard to list every cat available haha.

Im getting there, its a matter of figuring out what you want from a yacht before looking at yachts, I think thats where many go wrong, they go to a boat show and the 1. is just so pretty, OMG the size of those beds, oh a double dry shower, air con, oh yes, what, its affordable. Done deal. lol, ok a bit dramatic. Whatever I buy in life, I analyse to death, its part of my work and its part of who I am, I just cant help it.

[LuvSun]

Wow the Seawind 1600 is a beauty, its 10 feet longer than my lagoon and 3 tonnes lighter haha.


Seawind do the 1060 in a Lite version but it also weighs above the 12 ton range. I think Im going to get a list together of the 40-44ft low displacement cats. Has to be 13ton and under.

Then from there I can narrow things down and look for used models.

I was surprised at the cost of a 12 ton, in NZ dollars $650k. Thats 40ft. Wow, cheap. But the 50ft+ are twice that price and more. I guess it depends on company to Company.

Wow the Ice Cat 61 has only a displacement of 15 tonnes. I gotta see this thing under way, it must fly.

I do see a lot of Seawinds local and being an Aussie company, if I can find a Seawind Lite used, it might be just a price for price match.

[ThereAndBack]

How much racing sailing have you done?

Before you upgrade your boat, upgrade yourself, if you need it.

I used to sail a "big slow heavy boat" and would regularly smoke people that were shocked how fast we were going. It came down to years of racing. You learn a lot about how to properly sail a boat. I'm shocked by how many cruisers don't. And I'm not talking about lightning fast tacks, I'm talking about basic sail trim and shape. Basic course calculations. Basic wind finding.

[LuvSun]

I forgot to say water line has a big influence, but its pretty obvious Id have thought.
The secrets of a catamaran’s performance: the Length on Water Line | Lagoon Inside

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

I forgot to say water line has a big influence, but its pretty obvious Id have thought.
The secrets of a catamaran’s performance: the Length on Water Line | Lagoon Inside

Not limited to cats. All displacement hulls have this same issue.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Wow the Seawind 1600 is a beauty, its 10 feet longer than my lagoon and 3 tonnes lighter haha.


Seawind do the 1060 in a Lite version but it also weighs above the 12 ton range. I think Im going to get a list together of the 40-44ft low displacement cats. Has to be 13ton and under.

.

Our boat is 44 feet and about 6 tonne fully loaded for cruising.

[LuvSun]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

How much racing sailing have you done?

Before you upgrade your boat, upgrade yourself, if you need it.

During school, After school, on the weekends, and in adult life whenever a race was on.



I moved from Monos to th Cat because I still love being on the water but I just feel burnt out. I also have a bad back from rugby which is fine but a lot of manual work gets to it over time. I almost bought another sportsfishing launch just to get out there chasing mahi mahi and kingfish and all the tunas and freediving with the whales and orca and dolphins. Sea Lions are fun but they make me wary because I know what likes to eat sea lions around my parts lol.

If I get a crewfriend, ha, I made a word up, then I will teach her or hopefully I find one ready made, who can do all the hard work for me. ;-p

[LuvSun]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Our boat is 44 feet and about 6 tonne fully loaded for cruising.

Displacement and dry weight are identical.


Your 44ft cat weighs 6000lb ?

You are yanking my chain :-)

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Displacement and dry weight are identical.


Your 44ft cat weighs 6000lb ?

You are yanking my chain :-)

A ton, depending on the type of unit (metric vs US vs imperial) is generally 2000 lbs. So a 6 ton vessel is 12,000 lbs roughly.

[LuvSun]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

A ton, depending on the type of unit (metric vs US vs imperial) is generally 2000 lbs. So a 6 ton vessel is 12,000 lbs roughly.

Yeah gotcha, its so messed up metric vs imperial now in the world, with many countries using both.

Well that sounds awesome so 44ft at 12 ton is awesome, what model is it?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Yeah gotcha, its so messed up metric vs imperial now in the world, with many countries using both.

Well that sounds awesome so 44ft at 12 ton is awesome, what model is it?

Neither a ton nor a tonne is 1,000 pounds.

A tonne is roughly 1.1 short (US) tons.

[ozsailer]

Luvson,
cruiser 44 not yanking your chain. Great boat, sails well and crew have been sailing east coast of Australia fulltime for some time, very experienced and he should know the weight as he built it.


Greg H