Upgrading from a Lagoon 410 for a bit more pace?

[ed91e]

Just get over it. The only ones using the old fashioned and complicated units are the yanks. Even the brits are bit by bit moving over to the bright side.
1 kg = 1000g
1 ton = 1000 kg
Easy as it should be
��

[Zzmeyer]

Since when is 5,280 not the most obviously correct way to measure distance?

[ed91e]

You’re wrong. It’s 1852

[Factor]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Seawind do the 1060 in a Lite version but it also weighs above the 12 ton range. I think Im going to get a list together of the 40-44ft low displacement cats. Has to be 13ton and under..

The 1160 Lite is 6.5 tonne, not 12

[LuvSun]

Originally Posted by Factor

The 1160 Lite is 6.5 tonne, not 12

Yep 13000lb apparently according to their site.

There are some beautiful 40-42ft cats at 120000lb.

One of the benefits I also realised is you get more range from your fuel. Clearly you can sail in light winds like a mono, just not as fast, but going upwind in the Lagoon is a struggle, the 6000kg models do about 2-3 knots in a skimpy 5 knot breeze. I find that impressive.

I was considering going back to a monofull. But their are affordable used options in the performance cats.

Even the seawind 1060 light is only $650000nzd new, Ive seen a used one that looks as new for $380000. Im looking in Aus as well as Im a dual citizen and live there in winter (if I can get contract work). I prefer to berth in Aus as its just that bit closer to the islands. But NZ is awesome between January and April. I also prefer the spearfishing there.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Yep 13000lb apparently according to their site.

There are some beautiful 40-42ft cats at 120000lb.

One of the benefits I also realised is you get more range from your fuel. Clearly you can sail in light winds like a mono, just not as fast,

You really need to get on a good sailing cat.

[sailhand]

Most of the boats you have mentioned I have never really had the opportunity to examine in detail. They are usually near me for just a few seconds as I overtake them at twice their speed.
A lagoon left our anchorage 45 minutes before us and we overtook him within 4 miles. Some of these production cats are ridiculously slow. And who in their right mind wants to maintain 4 toilets, that is just nuts. Find a good custom built boat and go for a ride, you really will be surprised. Sure you wont be able to spend half your life fixing toilets, amongst other things, but you will sail faster than just about any mono your size. And that includes a lot of the stripped out bare bones racers.
I sailed in a regatta e few years back on a friends long term liveaboard cat and we beat all comers bar the two fastest boats in the multihull racing division and thats because they got to use kites. We took it out of them uphill. Their were plenty of fast racing monos bigger than us and we obliterated them. We were both faster and higher uphill than any of the monos. A good boat is a good boat and you really need to sail on a good cat before you spend your money. You might also want to investigate the build methods and quality of some of these production boats. A well built custom boat is the best quality boat you can buy. A badly built custom boat is the worst and production boats lie somewhere between. If you want the best this should give you an idea as to where you will find the better boats. If you like spending money and time playing with marine toilets and fittings then by all means buy something with 4 toilets and enjoy yourself sailing really slow. With cats less really is more.
It may seem that I am somewhat fascinated with marine based plumbing however the opposite is true. I have been known to pay other cruisers to fix the head in my boat. It gives me nightmares and the thought of four in one boat, well Id rather buy a mono.

[Zzmeyer]

sailhand - lots of good points. Note, however, that you can put the same toilet on a Lagoon as a custom cat. Would be interesting to see how expensive a custom 42 foot cat would cost. Every boat is a compromise. The Outremer 45 will smoke my 50 foot monohull. Like you, I generally smoke the cruising cats. However, a well sailed, properly equipped, cruising cat will sail off the wind as well as a cruising monohull (I've done 9 200 mile plus rally "races" in the past three years and while I do horizon jobs on most, a very well sailed Leopard 48 (with code zero, asymmetrical, folding props, a clean bottom and an experienced crew) sailed side by side against us for almost 800 nm.

[sailhand]

Zzmeyer some insightful plumbing information there. You are dead right about the type of toilet, my problem is with the quantity not so much the quality ie four times the weight and four times the maintenance and most of the time there is only two people onboard. ������ On a serious note there are some reasonably good production boats around. I think the problem is the build techniques required to make these production boats economically viable for their builders. The labour costs to fair all the internal surfaces in a reasonable size cat would be prohibitively expensive. The solution unfortunately is molded interior linings and mdf heavy timber cabinetry. This looks really good however it is very very heavy. The only way to support this weight is really fat hulls which generally means slow in a catamaran.
Recently at a pot luck christmas party on the beach at Tin Can Bay, Queensland, Australia I was approached by the owner of a french production cat. Someone at the gathering had informed him that I had successfully navigated a shortcut out of the bay known as the fishermans gutter many times and he was keen to seek some advice as to channel depth etc.. He informed me that a friend of his on a sistership had recently attempted to navigate through this passage and suffered severe damage to his boat. I assumed he had run aground and been pounded by the breaking seas in this area. It turns out he had just been hit beam on by one breaking wave as he transitted the gutter, a not uncommon event.
However this single wave had apparently dislodged all the mdf cabinetry on that side of the hull. Now my boat doesnt even have cupboard doors, let alone any mdf heavy timber, anywhere on the boat. However all my cabinetry, such as it is, is glassed onto the hull, not stapled on with a staple gun as claimed by my interrogator. I understand the economics of production built boats and the build methods used to facilitate profits. It does leave me somewhat perplexed though why people prefer "production" built boats to nice fast lightweight custom built cats. I guess it really comes down to where i started. How many toilets do you need, do you want heavy shiny cabinetry with doors stapled onto the hull, or expensive foam cored glass cabinetry hand buit and faired and a quarter of the weight. My boat is 43 feet 11.7 inches on the waterline to be precise. It weighs around four ton and has one toilet and no cupboard doors. A lagoon 440 which is actually under 42ft waterline length is twelve ton. That means to duplicate this weight I could find two boats like mine and stack them on top and then see how fast I sail. I dont think I would be doing 200 mile days thats for sure. If people envisaged two extra boats stacked on top of their prospective pride and joy I wonder how many would sell. Would they still be swayed by pretty and shiny. I probably will be later in life when Im too old to sail, and more interested in comfort. But whilst Im no speed machine, Im not ready to watch boats dissapear over the horizon off my bows, I like looking at them fade away astern whilst seated in the saloon. I can guarantee it will only have one toilet though.��

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by sailhand

———-snipped good stuff———— It does leave me somewhat perplexed though why people prefer "production" built boats to nice fast lightweight custom built cats. I guess it really comes down to where i started. How many toilets do you need, do you want heavy shiny cabinetry with doors stapled onto the hull, or expensive foam cored glass cabinetry hand buit and faired and a quarter of the weight. —————��

Age old discussion (Factor, 44, et al),but I’ll chime in since we’ve been looking for our final boat as we move into retirement. Simply put, it’s sometimes a matter of compromise. Years ago I wanted one of Jeff Schionning’s boats so badly I drove myself crazy trying to figure out how. Living on the east coast of the USA, couldn’t build myself, nor afford to buy one, and obviously none locally available, I had to compromise.

We don’t have the same number of “fast cat” designers, and/or the same number/kind of used boats available here. I went with a Condor 40 tri, then with Ian’s F31, and then a Corsair 36, but none could do what we want now, so we have to look at used production boats within our budget.

For those of us w/o a huge checkbook, but have a wife, 4 adult kids and their partners, one head won’t work, except when we’re alone. I sorta like my wife and she wants to sail, but not heeling over, and yes, she likes the galley up!

I’m excites to see Jeff’s Arrow being built in the US, but it’ll probably be too late or too expensive for us.

So we compromise; a slower day on the water beats every day on land.

Respectfully, and with regards to all those whose posts I’ve followed a long time!

[sailhand]

LeeV I could not agree more, everyday on the water is worth 10 on the land. I'm sure I'll end up on a production boat one day myself and I'll love it I'm sure. Great line up of boats you have there. How was the corsair 36, the sailing no doubt was great, but the liveaboard space is a cause for concern for me. I was actually pretty close to buying an f39 not so long ago. I wanted a boat to do the european canal system and I would also like to cruise in the med whilst there. For a brief moment I contemplated the f39, I guess I was having blue water withdrawals looking at flat canal barges and it was a great deal. How did you find the accommodation aspect of the f36. Was it long term liveaboard or more of a short term proposition. Maybe it was just the single head that got me excited. Ask anyone that knows me and they're sure to inform you that there's a few wires shorted or some bad connections in my head, and I'm not referring to the one on my boat. It works a lot better than the one on my shoulders, it can actually get rid of all the useless s&^t that gets put in it.

[LeeV]

We loved the 36.....to use a term from my younger days, she was the most badass boat out there; even anti-multihullers would dinghy over or inquire. Folks at restaurants would stop and stare at the “dragonfly” going by!

Lots of room on the tramps for fun with friends - on a day sail.
Even my wife, who’s still learning to sail (aren’t we all?!), has a YouTube video doing 9 knots while learning to steer with a tiller.

BUT...being 5’4”, 17 knots with 8’ following seas scared her. She wants more freeboard.

1 smallish head was never enough for more than us two. Maybe with 4 we could struggle, but the room below was tiny compared to a cat. Did we have fun sailing from Annapolis to Martha’s Vineyard? Holy cow, yes! Would she spend 5 weeks aboard again? Probably not, so we just sold her.

1 last key item: she’s 57 and I’m 65. Too old? Nope, but Osteoarthritis in my hands is torturous raising a huge main, so we got a 28v Milwaukee with a winch bit. As we have aged and put in our “camping” time, we both want to relax, not climb down into a tight berth, and have plenty of room for friends and family to stay as long as they like.

Do I like working on a head? ☹️☹️☹️ But we need at least 2.
Will I miss 12-20 knots! Oh yeah. Well, I’ll miss the 12-15; I won’t miss changing my underwear! 😉

Best regards,

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by LeeV

!

I’m excites to see Jeff’s Arrow being built in the US, but it’ll probably be too late or too expensive for us.

!

My apologies; that should have read Jeff Schionning’s “Razor” model, not the “Arrow.” Here’s the link to Pacific Seacraft in N.C. https://www.razorcats.com

Best regards,

[Zzmeyer]

Appears razor has no outside steering at all. Strange. Good looking drawings.

[sailhand]

LeeV thanks for the insightful analysis of the f36 accommodation. Like all compromises, aka boating, we tend to want our cake and eat it too. On the surface the f36 promises just that, and the "legendary" Ian Farrier was a true pioneering genius that made a massive contribution to multihull development. I doubt his shoes will ever be filled. A design and development process spanning almost 50 years will remain a unique achievement in multihull design and both his trimarans and the record of his contributions and achievements will endure.
It simply comes down to the primary focus of the design, and I think you alluded to what that might be, "I'll miss 12 - 20 knots". The performance aspect of the f boats is legendary worldwide, I suppose the only misgivings I've had relate to the liveaboard perspective. Solar panels, dinghys, wind generators and other cruising paraphernalia are a part of that lifestyle that are now considered essential, not withstanding the accommodation. As a cruiser There are certain sacrifices we are prepared to make in pursuit of that holy grail, performance. There is however a limit, and as you quite rightly pointed out, that limit tends to be on a linear scale related primarily to health and fitness. Unfortunately age does truly weary us, well most of us anyway.