Used... Fountaine Pajot Orana 44

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Sea hunter

I think we go for a used Fountaine Pajot Orana 44. We like the size and design in and out, and hope we are abel to find one for good a price...

Anywho know when first year came out ?

Any specific stuff to look at on body, other problems... ?

Any owner in EU ???
We real like to see one life we are from Denmark and Multihull are not common around. Think we want to sail in MD and keep it ther...

Happy new year all !
Rigo

1. AFAIK first built in 2009
2. There is a boat on my pontoon in Herzlia...If you want to come to Israel I believe I can arrange a visit and some sailing.
3. I have surveyed an Orana built in 2009 (hull no > 50) - it had no humidity problems and was a very nice boat on all accounts.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Lucky

I imported my cat from Sweden to Norway and had to pay 25 %VAT to Norway, the boat was commercial in Sweden therefore no VAT was paid. In Denmark if you decide to import you should pay Turkish 18% VAT, which saves you on paying Danish VAT. This is an EU agreement that say you can import from any contry to another not paying any surcharge to meet other countries VAT charges.

It may be debatable if you have to pay VAT in your destination EU country or in the first EU country you visit (or the first where you are checked by customs). But Turkey was outside the EU tax area, at least the last time I looked. So any Turkish tax you pay is not only lost, it may even inflate the "value" (cost) of the boat and also inflate the VAT you pay on that value.

[AussieWayne]

Rigo
I would have to second Lucky's recommendation for the mighty Belize 43 as a possible option and especially the Maestro owners version.....
as I just so happen to have one that is for sale in Marmaris Turkey It is being capably cared for by some very professional local people.
Never chartered and no osmosis!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-157685.html
She is Australian registered and flagged.

It seems that VAT is a bit of a minefield and there has been plenty of discussion here and elsewhere with divergent opinions creating confusion.
There is no doubting that VAT is applicable but at what rate is the question.
Is it governed by the prevailing VAT rate of the country of registration and flag or is it governed by the prevailing VAT rate of the FIRST EU country visited as the Port of entry into the EU?

It is my tentative understanding from what I have read (which could be totally wrong) that any taxes or VAT due to be paid by an EU citizen importing a non EU registered private vessel of any type or a non VAT paid EU registered vessel into the EU will be governed by the country to which the new owner FIRST enters the EU. This is despite the fact that the vessel may be registered in and flying the flag of another EU country.
As I said a potential minefield as my guess is that different local Customs authorities may interpret the regulations differently from country to country and maybe even from port to port.

Further information below on individual country rates that may be applicable
(Please make your own enquiries to confirm the validity of the info below as I am definitely no expert in EU affairs)
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...t_rates_en.pdf

From this info it would appear that Denmark and Sweden have a Standard rate of 25% whilst Luxembourg has a lower rate of 17% and Malta 18%
What I am not sure about is that if you register and flag as Danish then FIRST enter the EU through another EU country paying that country's VAT rate that when you do sail home to a Danish port whether you will be responsible for the difference in country rate between the 2 countries. eg 25% less 17% paid to say Luxembourg = 8% due to Denmark???
I suspect not but maybe you could make some local enquiries within Denmark.
Pretty safe to say that you will pay VAT between 17% to 25% I guess.

Maybe someone else here will be able to chime in with their first hand experience of doing such?
Obviously the simplest (and most expensive) way is pay the 25% to the Danish authorities and show proof of VAT status to any country that enquires as you sail the Med but maybe you don't have to do this.

There is this advice below from the RYA

RYA Buying a Secondhand Boat

'The importer of a yacht from outside
the EU will therefore find it to his advantage to import it first to
another EU State where a valuation and payment terms have been.
agreed in advance (in writing) before bringing it into this
country. Once a yacht has been imported into any EU
State and VAT paid, in theory no further VAT liability can arise
within the EU.' (My emphasis)


And there is this
'Anyone intending to do this would be well advised to import the boat into one of the EU countries with a lower VAT rate, such as Cyprus, Madeira or Malta."
from here EU VAT Regulations

And this relating to the UK but still relevant
Buying a Boat…have you considered its VAT status? - Keates Ferris Yachts

JimB has some more background info that might be of assistance as well
Documents, VAT and Waste Control | JimB Sail


Anyhow Rigo I hope this helps as I wish you every success and good luck with your search for the 'Perfect cat".
You generally can't go wrong with a well built Fountaine Pajot catamaran of any design so long as it meets your own personal requirements.

AussieWayne

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by AussieWayne

Rigo
I would have to second Lucky's recommendation for the mighty Belize 43 as a possible option and especially the Maestro owners version.....
as I just so happen to have one that is for sale in Marmaris Turkey It is being capably cared for by some very professional local people.
Never chartered and no osmosis!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-157685.html
She is Australian registered and flagged.

It seems that VAT is a bit of a minefield and there has been plenty of discussion here and elsewhere with divergent opinions creating confusion.
There is no doubting that VAT is applicable but at what rate is the question.
Is it governed by the prevailing VAT rate of the country of registration and flag or is it governed by the prevailing VAT rate of the FIRST EU country visited as the Port of entry into the EU?

It is my tentative understanding from what I have read (which could be totally wrong) that any taxes or VAT due to be paid by an EU citizen importing a non EU registered private vessel of any type or a non VAT paid EU registered vessel into the EU will be governed by the country to which the new owner FIRST enters the EU. This is despite the fact that the vessel may be registered in and flying the flag of another EU country.
As I said a potential minefield as my guess is that different local Customs authorities may interpret the regulations differently from country to country and maybe even from port to port.

Further information below on individual country rates that may be applicable
(Please make your own enquiries to confirm the validity of the info below as I am definitely no expert in EU affairs)
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...t_rates_en.pdf

From this info it would appear that Denmark and Sweden have a Standard rate of 25% whilst Luxembourg has a lower rate of 17% and Malta 18%
What I am not sure about is that if you register and flag as Danish then FIRST enter the EU through another EU country paying that country's VAT rate that when you do sail home to a Danish port whether you will be responsible for the difference in country rate between the 2 countries. eg 25% less 17% paid to say Luxembourg = 8% due to Denmark???
I suspect not but maybe you could make some local enquiries within Denmark.
Pretty safe to say that you will pay VAT between 17% to 25% I guess.

Maybe someone else here will be able to chime in with their first hand experience of doing such?
Obviously the simplest (and most expensive) way is pay the 25% to the Danish authorities and show proof of VAT status to any country that enquires as you sail the Med but maybe you don't have to do this.

There is this advice below from the RYA Buying a Second Hand Boat and the Legal Aspects file:///C:/Users/Administrator/Downloads/Secondhand_yacht_book_RYA.pdf
'The importer of a yacht from outside
the EU will therefore find it to his advantage to import it first to
another EU State where a valuation and payment terms have been.
agreed in advance (in writing) before bringing it into this
country. Once a yacht has been imported into any EU
State and VAT paid, in theory no further VAT liability can arise
within the EU.' (My emphasis)

And there is this
'Anyone intending to do this would be well advised to import the boat into one of the EU countries with a lower VAT rate, such as Cyprus, Madeira or Malta."
from here EU VAT Regulations

And this relating to the UK but still relevant
Buying a Boat…have you considered its VAT status? - Keates Ferris Yachts

JimB has some more background info that might be of assistance as well
Documents, VAT and Waste Control | JimB Sail


Anyhow Rigo I hope this helps as I wish you every success and good luck with your search for the 'Perfect cat".
You generally can't go wrong with a well built Fountaine Pajot catamaran of any design so long as it meets your own personal requirements.

AussieWayne

I don't have practical experience but I read a few official EU regulatory documents as I was about to sign a deal for a boat with VAT unpaid (before the broker messed it up).
Here is what I learned (of course I am open to corrections!):
The boat comes from outside the EU so it needs to be imported. On import you have to pay duties and VAT according to the rates of the country where you import.
For that the boat has to be physically present in the country of import. You can't declare import with danish authorities until the boat is there.

AFAIK all countries along the way require that any personally owned boat is VAT paid and some of them ask for proof of VAT.

There is a scheme under which you can move the boat through european countries and import in the destination country but that is complex and requires friendly cooperation from all countries that you pass through. Given the need for money in the southern european countries this may not work.

Even if you follow all required procedures it may still be impossible simply because some local customs officers don't know all the rules. Unless you don't mind beeing chained to the dock for a few months while you pay big money to local lawyers to educate these officials about their own legislation



the safest bet is to import in the first EU country you pass or be prepared to pay the highest VAT rate of any country you go through on the way to your home port.

[AussieWayne]

Rabbi
Makes sense what you are saying about not being able to pay the VAT until the boat is actually in a Danish port so they can assess it. Although they may accept a genuine sales receipt and Contract to Purchase documents and assess from those,,,,maybe? But in this case at 25% there is no real advantage in doing so.
I think that he will still be able to register a boat on the Danish registry wherever he locates his boat and then enter at the closest and or cheapest port of entry into the EU paying the prevailing VAT rate of that country.
AussieWayne

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by AussieWayne

Rabbi
Makes sense what you are saying about not being able to pay the VAT until the boat is actually in a Danish port so they can assess it. Although they may accept a genuine sales receipt and Contract to Purchase documents and assess from those,,,,maybe? But in this case at 25% there is no real advantage in doing so.
I think that he will still be able to register a boat on the Danish registry wherever he locates his boat and then enter at the closest and or cheapest port of entry into the EU paying the prevailing VAT rate of that country.
AussieWayne

As far as i know there is no legal way of importing without the boat being physically present.
But I "heard" stories of some south eastern countries not being that strict about this.

As said, there is a legal way of bringing the boat to some other country. But to do so one needs to do lots of paperworks, notify each country before entry, place a bond in the amount of VAT due, reclaim it upon leaving the country and repeat the sae in the next country. And all of this in countries with sometimes poorly educated officials, who don't necessarily know their own laws, and don't want to play by these rules to improve their statistics, and typically don't speak any english as soon as you want something from them.


Malta may be the way to go, they should be fairly experienced with this as they are a prime destination (low VAT and at the border of the EU).

[Sea hunter]

THX all for the inputs... the TAX I have found out, no problems... Orana 44 2009-2010 what are the about price from new ? What price do they go for today ?

[Sail IC]

Sea Hunter,

I'm from your neibour country Sweden and bought an 2008 Orana two years ago. It was a privately owned boat located in Croatia. Thought I give you a review.

First, I like the Orana. That's why I bought it. But there are many great boats out there, the challenge is to find the one that fits YOUR priorities.

The Good.

It sails well. 13,1m length, 109 sqm sail, 9.8 ton factory lightweight. Designers cannot beat physics. Compare these numbers to other similar cats and you'll get the point. I think sailing ability is why FP is so popular in the private market (not only charter). Put folding/feathering props (cheapest performance booster your can buy) on it and keep the bottom clean and you will frustrate many cats who think they should be faster.

Decent bridge deck clearance. Keep it light. I get some slams upwind here in the Caribbean, but every cat will or I think the owner isn't telling the true story or not going upwind. I do, always sailing.

It seems to be built strong where its most important. Compare the dimensions of the mast profile and standing rigging. Seems one size bigger than most other similar sized cats. Why put 14mm shrouds on it if that kind of load hasn't gone into the equation of the load carrying part of the hull. The interior is a bit flimsy, but I take that weight saving trade-off. Honycomb would be better, but then you talking a different price level.

Light wood with round corners throughout the interior. This generation FPs got it right in my view. Many earlier cats has darker wood and newer sharp corners. Don't like either.

Very well designed cockpit. Big table. Do this test on different cats in this size. Put eight dinner plates on the table and see how much space there is. For casual entertainment, with the bench opposite the settee and that you can easy enter the aft bench from behind, you can sit many without having to step over peoples laps. And everybody has a backrest.

The steering bench can sit 2-3 people and your still in contact with the people in the cockpit

Headroom. I'm 2m tall. The Orana works for me and it limited my choices

Forward cabins. You sleep with head forward so you don't have to be an acrobat to get into it if the better half is already in it.

The master cabin is very nice with the true walk around bed. Feel spacious and airy when in it.

What I wish they done different.

As on many cats, the anchor enters just in front of the mast. If you anchor where its shallow and windy, its a true challenge to get the anchor up without the chain touching the hulls. Catana has in my view the best solution with an anchor roller under the front beam and the chain runs under the tramp to the mast. This post reminded me that I need to get one of these fittings and it will be fine.

The davits should hoist the dinghy higher. It's OK if sail within a weather window, but I'm not sure I would like to have the dinghy there running an ocean gale.

The toilets in the heads are compact size and narrow, but it should be a problem for us slim Scandinavians.

I'd like the galley to be bigger and with true double sinks. More storage needed, but might the case on all cats in this size. The storage for the garbage bin is bigger than the door, making it frustrating to get the bag out if you filled it to much (I always do and swear). The built in fridge is great though and power efficient.

Would I buy it again? Absolutely. By above, what is important to me the Orana does very well. It meets MY priories and buying used you get a lot of boat for a money.

On the VAT issue. I imported another boat from US. Came by cargo ship through Germany, and I paid 19% German VAT. In Sweden, VAT is a customs matter. Registration has nothing to do with it and doesn't even check by the registration office if VAT has been paid on the vessel.

Good luck and enjoy your boat search and shopping.

[monte]

I'm glad it wasn't yours that burnt the other day in Le Marin! I heard it was an fp but not the name

[Sail IC]

Originally Posted by monte

I'm glad it wasn't yours that burnt the other day in Le Marin! I heard it was an fp but not the name

I'm in St. Martin at the moment. Too bad for the owner.

BTW, the L400 was second on my list. It's a great design for us tall people. Despite being the roomiest 40 footer on the market, it sails surprisingly well. I talked to a guy having an old Lagoon 47 TPI (older cats typically sails better, lighter), and he was truly surprised by the sailing performance of the L400. He was faster, but he expected it to be by more.

[yeloya]

[QUOTE=Sail IC;2006235]Sea Hunter,



As on many cats, the anchor enters just in front of the mast. If you anchor where its shallow and windy, its a true challenge to get the anchor up without the chain touching the hulls. Catana has in my view the best solution with an anchor roller under the front beam and the chain runs under the tramp to the mast.

FP believes that keeping the weights as close as to the center of gravity of the boat is better and I tend to agree.. I never had any problem with this set up if the bridle is properly set.


The davits should hoist the dinghy higher. It's OK if sail within a weather window, but I'm not sure I would like to have the dinghy there running an ocean gale.

Actually Orana's davids are higher than many other cats. I wouldn't call it gale force but I ran comfortably with 6 meters following waves in Atlantic without any issues.


To me, the main issue of the boat is a poor finish, ie the handles of the doors that falls down, the sliding door, floor panels, etc..

Cheers

Yeloya

[marisleonardo]

Hi, i have a 2008 Orana. I think the first year built was 2007, i saw hull 1 at Annapolis Boat show Fall 2007. I have hull 30.
Check for osmosis (blisters) above waterline under bridge deck and beloe the waterline. FP warranted my hull and redid the hull summer of 2012 by applying a new epoxy barrier coat after grinding off previous gelcoat exterior membrane.
Also check the holding integrity of the cabin top port and starboard window posts that are glued onto main bridgedeck. The boat flexes under heavy sea loading while moving and this can be an area that will crackoose from adhesive and then allow sea water into the salon
FP helped me with one of these fsilures, i paid for the other one.
Overall i am still very happy with the Orana, sailed it from France to Annapolis and now skipper chartering in the USVI, BVI ,and Spanish Virgins. ..mine is the Maestro version...good luck and have fun...sea ya

[browone]

Not sure if I should start a new thread or not, but since there seems to be a lot of Orana experience here I thought I would give it a try. We're seriously considering an Orana and took a look at one on the hard recently. One thing I noticed was the lack of opening windows and it got me wondering about ventilation. Any experience on whether the Orana gets enough ventilation in hotter climates?

Also the one we're looking at is a 2009 which has just had an osmosis treatment with vinylester but no epoxy coat. Should this be a concern?

Thanks in advance

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by browone

Not sure if I should start a new thread or not, but since there seems to be a lot of Orana experience here I thought I would give it a try. We're seriously considering an Orana and took a look at one on the hard recently. One thing I noticed was the lack of opening windows and it got me wondering about ventilation. Any experience on whether the Orana gets enough ventilation in hotter climates?

Also the one we're looking at is a 2009 which has just had an osmosis treatment with vinylester but no epoxy coat. Should this be a concern?

Thanks in advance

One of the problems of Orana is that there is no hatch above the kitchen and cannot be put one either because of the winches.. Nevertheless, we never had a problem ventilation, two hatches in windshield + the tiny one behind the mast do the job.

For osmosis treatment, the removed GRP is replaced with vinilester + 6 layers of epoxy barriers as a general methodology approved also by FP. You can check whether the treatment was made under warranty of FP or not. One should also make sure that the hulls are adequately dried. As a result of some additives that FP has used in their resin during production, drying off takes very long..

Cheers

Yeloya

[browone]

Thanks Yeloya.

Good to know about the ventilation in the main cabin. Any thoughts on the cabins in the hulls - do these get any breeze?

On the osmosis topic: this is what was done to the boat under FP warrantee. I don't see any reference to epoxy (although it may be in some of the trade names for the materials?). Does this sound like a suitable procedure?

"This treatment involved the removing of 4mm of antifoul, gelcoat and chop strand matt fibreglass which removed all osmosis blisters and 50% of the moisture in the surface laminates.

The hull was then ground using P24 grinding discs to prepare the surface and to remove any additional blisters and air voids. Over a period of 4 weeks the hull was washed 3 times to remove salt and acid with fresh water and was then left to dry for a 2 month period which achieved a below 10% average moisture content in the fibreglass.

Then all wet work was done in a shed at below 50% atmospheric moisture content and around 20oC. This involved local vinyl ester repairs to air voids. Then the hull was screeded with vinyl ester resin to fill any imperfections, 1 x 450g chop strand matt powder bound fibreglass and 620g rovings using vinyl ester resin was applied and then a layer of Deralight and vinyl ester fairing was trialed on the C.S.M using a wet on wet application.

The fairing was then left to cure and then sanded and spot filled. After a full cure of resins was achieved, approximately 350 microns of Jotun Penguard paint was applied, using airless spraying. A further 2 coats of Jotun Seaforce 90 antifoul was applied."