Waiting lists and lead times...

[3cdad]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Did SeaWind really not have build timelines in the contract you signed for breach if they aren’t able to deliver?

Something might be off with the 1370, the RUby Rose people announced their decision over 2 1/2 years ago, at the same time the Balance 442 was announced. The first 1370 is yet to splash where 4 of the Balance 442’s have crossed oceans now and the first one splashed a year ago. The boat does look like it will be an amazing cat, but Seawind dropped the ball, and can’t blame it on the global supply issue that the first one still isn’t in the water.

This isn’t the only model they produce though & once they do get the 1370 sorted out they’ll be spitting out 30 a year, & with 100 on the order books it’s a high volume product…inevitably somebody on that list of 100 will back out or have some unexpected health issues (or family circumstances change). Plus considering that SeaWind didn’t guarantee the price for any of these deliveries out beyond 24 months the price increases and crazy long lead time will cause fallout.

This will be true for every single manufacturer Balance, HH, Seawind, Lagoon…that’s just the way it works life happens when people make plans unfortunately.

A few different points... First, one of the reasons we did pick Seawind is because of their build quality and pedigree. I've been on FPs, Lagoons, Leopards, and Seawinds. The difference in build quality is both visually and audibly immediately apparent. So, when someone mentions "production" cats, I do not lump SW in with those others. Trust me, I would not be waiting this patiently for an FP, Lagoon, etc...

SW appears to be focusing on what matters, which is getting the boat built right. I wish they would give more attention to communicating with those of us in the order book but I have not seen any signs that they are cutting corners on this boat. They appear to be dealing with a severe shortage of qualified manpower in Vietnam, along with some supplier issues. I doubt if they will be "spitting out" 30 1370s a year anytime in 2023, or 2024. Perhaps not even 2025.

That said, it does look like a boat worth waiting for, especially at the price point that early buyers locked in. Back in July 2020 when the 1370 was announced, early buyers got to lock in the $659k base boat price (now $759k) AND Seawind also allowed buyers to lock in option pricing in effect at that time. By my estimate, the price I locked in back in 2020 would now cost $200k more if ordered today.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by 3cdad

A few different points... First, one of the reasons we did pick Seawind is because of their build quality and pedigree. I've been on FPs, Lagoons, Leopards, and Seawinds. The difference in build quality is both visually and audibly immediately apparent. So, when someone mentions "production" cats, I do not lump SW in with those others. Trust me, I would not be waiting this patiently for an FP, Lagoon, etc...

SW appears to be focusing on what matters, which is getting the boat built right. I wish they would give more attention to communicating with those of us in the order book but I have not seen any signs that they are cutting corners on this boat. They appear to be dealing with a severe shortage of qualified manpower in Vietnam, along with some supplier issues. I doubt if they will be "spitting out" 30 1370s a year anytime in 2023, or 2024. Perhaps not even 2025.

That said, it does look like a boat worth waiting for, especially at the price point that early buyers locked in. Back in July 2020 when the 1370 was announced, early buyers got to lock in the $659k base boat price (now $759k) AND Seawind also allowed buyers to lock in option pricing in effect at that time. By my estimate, the price I locked in back in 2020 would now cost $200k more if ordered today.

SeaWind is definitely a tick higher on the quality side that the Lagoon, FP, & Leopards, very nice catamarans. Early buyers that locked into pricing, like every person who locked into pricing on any cat in 2020 is getting a good deal with built in equity! I’m just surprised buyers of the 1370 don’t have some recourse for SW missing a delivery by a year and half. That’s unacceptable, but certainly don’t back out now, only worry would be if the company is in financial distress , and that’s the reason they are performing worse on delivery than their competitors.

If SW would just update the 1600 to something more modern we’d have absolutely considered the brand. If they just applied the 1370 design elements to the bigger boat they’d have a real winner, slapping a SW badge on a nearly 20 year old Corsair design.

[3cdad]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

SeaWind is definitely a tick higher on the quality side that the Lagoon, FP, & Leopards, very nice catamarans. Early buyers that locked into pricing, like every person who locked into pricing on any cat in 2020 is getting a good deal with built in equity! I’m just surprised buyers of the 1370 don’t have some recourse for SW missing a delivery by a year and half. That’s unacceptable, but certainly don’t back out now, only worry would be if the company is in financial distress , and that’s the reason they are performing worse on delivery than their competitors.

If SW would just update the 1600 to something more modern we’d have absolutely considered the brand. If they just applied the 1370 design elements to the bigger boat they’d have a real winner, slapping a SW badge on a nearly 20 year old Corsair design.

The "recourse" is to cancel your order. It's not hard to find someone to take your spot. To my knowledge, the other higher end builders (Outremer, HH, etc...) did not offer fixed price contracts to buyers, but instead agreed to allow buyers to cancel if the price increased over a certain amount. I'll give SW credit for allowing early buyers to lock in a fixed price although, in hindsight, they probably regret doing so.

SW's huge order book of 1370s is a big asset that they could borrow against if they really wanted to go big and ramp up production. I can only assume that they have decided to play this conservatively.

As for the 1600, I'm not an expert on the boat although I do know that they did update it recently. The current model is called the 1600 Passagemaker.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by 3cdad

The "recourse" is to cancel your order. It's not hard to find someone to take your spot. To my knowledge, the other higher end builders (Outremer, HH, etc...) did not offer fixed price contracts to buyers, but instead agreed to allow buyers to cancel if the price increased over a certain amount. I'll give SW credit for allowing early buyers to lock in a fixed price although, in hindsight, they probably regret doing so.

SW's huge order book of 1370s is a big asset that they could borrow against if they really wanted to go big and ramp up production. I can only assume that they have decided to play this conservatively.

As for the 1600, I'm not an expert on the boat although I do know that they did update it recently. The current model is called the 1600 Passagemaker.

I’m not sure if you have a business background or not, but if SW truly offered fixed price contracts on boats out beyond 2 years, that book of business is a huge liability not an asset. A liability that could in fact bankrupt the company, the boat building industry is a historically brutal business to be in with profit margins razor thin to begin with, a blunder like offering guaranteed price on a boat you won’t deliver until 3-4 years after taking the order will be loosing money on every hull. This is why all the builders who are business savvy only guarantee pricing for hulls they know pricing on which is roughly 2 years out. HH, Balance, Outremer all take a deposit for builds farther out and if the cost increases over 10% you can back out, and they’ve all gone up since 2020 by more than 10%. I hope for SW’s sake what you are saying isn’t true or else they’ll not be around to deliver the 100 boats they have on order.

On the 1600 front, it was originally a Corsair design (the same contract builder who builds the Seawind now), first launched around 2006 I believe, you can still see a few pop up for sale once in a while, it’s the exact same boat. Seawind rebadged it the 1600 and updated a few things initially calling it a performance boat, only problem is when you put any weight onboard I it performs like a sea slug. They had to redesign it to marginally improve its performance and payload capacity. We thought we’d love it until we toured one, if you are taller than 5’8”, you can’t even use the hem positions. Not the boat for us.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

.....

On the 1600 front, it was originally a Corsair design (the same contract builder who builds the Seawind now), .

Seawind is not built by a contract builder. Corsair built the Corsair 51 - in their factory in Vietnam, Corsair was then owned by Paul Koch an Australian guy who had relocated from Califormina. Seawind were building in Woolongong Australia, (owned then and owned now by Richard) (GM then and now by Mike, Production Manage by Mark then and for first few years after move to Viet). Seawind purchased Corsair, moved the production to Vietnam, There is no contract builder. There were 3 Corsair 51s built as far as I know. Paul who owned Corsair is still in the game, now producing the Rapido Trimarans.

Im 190 cms, I have no real issue using the helms on a 1600. Having said that - I have always believed in smaller boats and the 1160 is still my preference in their range.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Factor

Seawind is not built by a contract builder. Corsair built the Corsair 51 - in their factory in Vietnam, Corsair was then owned by Paul Koch an Australian guy who had relocated from Califormina. Seawind were building in Woolongong Australia, (owned then and owned now by Richard) (GM then and now by Mike, Production Manage by Mark then and for first few years after move to Viet). Seawind purchased Corsair, moved the production to Vietnam, There is no contract builder. There were 3 Corsair 51s built as far as I know. Paul who owned Corsair is still in the game, now producing the Rapido Trimarans.

Im 190 cms, I have no real issue using the helms on a 1600. Having said that - I have always believed in smaller boats and the 1160 is still my preference in their range.

That’s right, I totally forgot about how Seawind bought Corsair then tried to screw the people over who had signed contracts with them to build what they now call the 1600. Then Seawind declared bankruptcy in 2012. Now they are taking deposits and “guaranteeing pricing” on boats they won’t deliver for 3-4 years while the costs to build have increased 20-30%.. Yep no reason at all for concern people.

I can’t be the only one who sees the connection and history potentially repeating itself? Buyer beware, i think there’s a saying “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice……”

[mattinacan]

Originally Posted by SoPacBound

There is a YouTube channel called "The O'Kellys". In their latest episode the guy mentioned that the waiting times for new Catamarans have been getting shorter.

I don't know if that is true, but it would certainly change my plans somewhat looking for a catamaran. I thought my only chance for the next 2 years was getting lucky or maybe buying a relatively new cat coming out of charter.

Any thoughts or predictions for the next 2 years?

I just got an email from Balance that they have a 482 available for December 2024, but you better have $1.7M ready.

[mattinacan]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

That’s right, I totally forgot about how Seawind bought Corsair then tried to screw the people over who had signed contracts with them to build what they now call the 1600. Then Seawind declared bankruptcy in 2012. Now they are taking deposits and “guaranteeing pricing” on boats they won’t deliver for 3-4 years while the costs to build have increased 20-30%.. Yep no reason at all for concern people.

I can’t be the only one who sees the connection and history potentially repeating itself? Buyer beware, i think there’s a saying “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice……”

Seawind announced the 1370 in July 2020, they've taken 100 deposits and haven't finished hull #1. They have an amazing business model, just take deposits and don't finish anything!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

That’s right, I totally forgot about how Seawind bought Corsair then tried to screw the people over who had signed contracts with them to build what they now call the 1600. Then Seawind declared bankruptcy in 2012. Now they are taking deposits and “guaranteeing pricing” on boats they won’t deliver for 3-4 years while the costs to build have increased 20-30%.. Yep no reason at all for concern people.



I can’t be the only one who sees the connection and history potentially repeating itself? Buyer beware, i think there’s a saying “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice……”

Don’t know where you get your facts

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Then Seawind declared bankruptcy in 2012.

Nope - never did. They briefly went into administration, no owner lost a cent.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Factor

Nope - never did. They briefly went into administration, no owner lost a cent.

Please read and provide your take on how this is a company you’d like to do business with:

https://casetext.com/case/goldman-v-seawind-grp-holdings-pty-ltd-1

Okay, if you call depositing your money in 2007 and 5 years later in 2012 they still haven’t started your boat so you have to take them back to court…all the time paying legal fees “not loosing a cent”, then I guess you are exactly the type of customer they are looking for!

I’m simply pointing out that there just maybe is cause for caution. But lots of very bright, honest and intelligent people throw good money after bad, I hope this is not another instance where this happens….but it has indeed transpired with this company before.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by mattinacan

Seawind announced the 1370 in July 2020, they've taken 100 deposits and haven't finished hull #1. They have an amazing business model, just take deposits and don't finish anything!

There was that little problem called corona virus. Ho Chi Minh city was totally shut down for a while. But now they are real close to finishing hull #1. After they sort the minor fitment issues they are really going to rock. There's a 1370 opening for next year.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Please read and provide your take on how this is a company you’d like to do business with:



https://casetext.com/case/goldman-v-...ings-pty-ltd-1



Okay, if you call depositing your money in 2007 and 5 years later in 2012 they still haven’t started your boat so you have to take them back to court…all the time paying legal fees “not loosing a cent”, then I guess you are exactly the type of customer they are looking for!



I’m simply pointing out that there just maybe is cause for caution. But lots of very bright, honest and intelligent people throw good money after bad, I hope this is not another instance where this happens….but it has indeed transpired with this company before.

Seawind purchased Corsair in 2010, so they were not part of the original contract including deposit payed, payments paid and completion date, this was all Corsair before being sold to Seawind.
Seawind it appears did pay the owners of the Corsair 50’s $90k not $50k a piece.
Here’s a link to a 2015 follow up of the court case. I wonder what ever happened?

https://casetext.com/case/goldman-v-...ldings-pty-ltd

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by smj

Seawind purchased Corsair in 2010, so they were not part of the original contract including deposit payed, payments paid and completion date, this was all Corsair before being sold to Seawind.
Seawind it appears did pay the owners of the Corsair 50’s $90k not $50k a piece.
Here’s a link to a 2015 follow up of the court case. I wonder what ever happened?

https://casetext.com/case/goldman-v-...ldings-pty-ltd

How anybody could actually read the original case and this document and then decide to enter into a purchase agreement with Seawind is beyond me. Not the type of people I choose to do business with, but hey, everybody is different.

Now purchasing one secondhand, that I could wrap my head around as the ones they actually complete are very nice and have respectable sailing characteristics.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

How anybody could actually read the original case and this document and then decide to enter into a purchase agreement with Seawind is beyond me. Not the type of people I choose to do business with, but hey, everybody is different.



Now purchasing one secondhand, that I could wrap my head around as the ones they actually complete are very nice and have respectable sailing characteristics.

Your having an all carbon Balance built, correct? Really nice catamarans.