Weighing down performance cats

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

How do you quantify comfort? To many cruisers, just the space of a catamaran would be a big thing.

...

Or is your idea of comfort getting into an anchorage sooner, getting the good spots, spending less time out at sea?

Less time at sea and more at the anchorage? What is the meaning of a performance cat if not sailing? Aren't we out there for sailing? At anchor a Lagoon is in every aspect superior to a same LOA performance cat.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Less time at sea and more at the anchorage? What is the meaning of a performance cat if not sailing? Aren't we out there for sailing? At anchor a Lagoon is in every aspect superior to a same LOA performance cat.

Not if it's still 150 miles away, in 35 - 45 knot winds, while the performance cat, having departed at the same time is now safely and comfortably anchored.

And even at anchor we have some advantages. With daggerboards, lifting motors and rudders allowing us into places a boat with 1.2 metres draught simply can't go.

Wind against tide is for us less problematic, no chance of our anchor chain getting wrapped around our mini keels. (I spent a few days last year repairing a mini keel that had been damaged by chain wrapping around it in a wind against tide situation)

In strong wind against tide conditions, lifting our rudders allows us to point at the wind, where boats with keels lie side on to the wind and waves, or sail around violently.

In every way superior? Nope, sorry.

[CatNewBee]

but can you safely beach your cat without damaging the rudders?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

but can you safely beach your cat without damaging the rudders?

He did say kick up rudders so yes.

[Go Wildcats]

I agree that comfort is very subjective. The performance cats are more impacted by weight gain than production cats. What I'm attempting to understand is how much weight is added for a couple on a three cabin cat to accommodate uptown 6 with AC, water maker, solar, lithium, genset to charge lithium for AC (?), food for 3 months, scuba compressor and gear, dingy/motor, diesel, etc. These are the obvious items. I'm also attempting to understand what is missing from performance cats that are standard on production cats (refrigerator/freezer, like shower doors vs Outremer curtains, # of winches, etc). I'm likely being daft, but it seems that many performance cats are less equipped, not to say they are less cruise worthy. But once items are loaded, is more weight added to a Performance cat vs production to achieve the same level of comfort?

Also, Outremers (I keep coming back to them because they are amazing boats) are definitely lighter then other similar LOA and have the same or slightly less SA. The weight is the major advantage they have

Brand Model SA Lite Ship
Lagoon 46 1,536 36,603
Lagoon 450F 1,410 37,265
Outremer 4X 1,323 16,400
Leopard 45 1,318 31,967
Fountaine Pajot 45 1,280 27,200
Lagoon 440 1,249 26,786
Outremer 45 1,184 17,400
Antares 44GS 1,086 22,500
Balance 451 1,041 18,500


What strikes me the most looking at the weights is that production cats are so much heavier. Where is the weight coming from? A lagoon 46 is TWICE that of a Outremer 45, and 10K more than even a Lagoon 440. This is what is driving my question. My thinking is that most of the weight is directly related to comfort. Yes, some is to resin and fiberglass for wider hulls, but it can't be that Lagoon is using twice as much as Outremer.


Edit: The fly bridge and better cockpit cover could be damn heavy I guess.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

How do you quantify comfort? To many cruisers, just the space of a catamaran would be a big thing.

For others, particularly if you spend a lot of time in marinas, or if you don't want to move with the seasons, air conditioning or heating might be crucial.

Even with gensets, there's a huge range of sizes. Any boat can carry a Honda or similar. There are quite lightweight and compact diesel built in types in the 5kva range.

Do you need 4 double cabins, 4 heads, 4 showers?

Or is your idea of comfort getting into an anchorage sooner, getting the good spots, spending less time out at sea?

[conway]

Julie Palm wrote excellent articles documenting their acquisition of an Outremer 51, "Archer", including a very helpful weight estimate table - http://www.aeroyacht.com/wp-content/...alm-part-2.pdf. Those numbers are a couple of years out of date as the design has evolved and the definition of "standard equipment" has changed but you'll get the general idea.

My own calculations (I'm a future O51 owner) can be summarized as follows: base O51 (which is very well equipped with almost everything you'd want for coastal cruising) weighs around 10.9 tons (24000 lbs). I have planned for about 1.2 tons of "stuff" which includes a/c, dinghy, anchors, extra sails, watermaker, bicycles and personal gear, and an allowance for about 1.4 tons for humans (4), fuel, water and a month's provisions. Includes weight reductions from lithium batteries and some carbon inserts and does not include a genset or dive compressor. More weight can be saved with a carbon mast and fancier sails.

That leaves me about 500kg below the recommended max weight of the boat which makes me happy. How much your boat will weigh will vary greatly based on how much you want to put on it and how much money you want to spend. Bottom line is you can get an amazingly comfortable boat which will sail incredibly well and be well under factory loading specifications.

[CatNewBee]

just sail as a couple or single handed, that saves a lot of weight on people, water, food, equipment, toys....

[Dave_S]

I think you can have all of that gear, just don't by the heavy option. If you buy a generator get a suitcase 2.2kW one not a 6kW desiel monster.

Try to buy things that aren't fixed in the boat, i.e. the watermaker, you don't always need it, only take it when you are cruising.

I think if you are still having problems deciding if you want to get a fast boat or a luxury boat, you already know you want a fast one. Your just trying to work out how much trouble your going to be in when you buy it.

Best piece of advice.......
Buy the one that makes you smile.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

but can you safely beach your cat without damaging the rudders?

We beach our boat for several weeks every year. Most of our favourite anchorages involve drying out.

But not only that, we've also hit a log at high speed, and rocks a couple of times at low speed, and apart from breaking the sacrificial lock down dowel, zero damage.

Boats with fixed rudders and mini keels are much more likely to have problems in drying anchorages. They can put far greater loads on stern anchors as the incoming tide works against the rudders and keels. If the stern anchor lets go, the boat can swing sideways, and could potentially swipe the rudder against a sandbank.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I think you can have all of that gear, just don't by the heavy option. If you buy a generator get a suitcase 2.2kW one not a 6kW desiel monster.

Try to buy things that aren't fixed in the boat, i.e. the watermaker, you don't always need it, only take it when you are cruising.

.

But there be the issue for many.

Longevity and reliability means having the heavier genset
Living aboard full times means stuff like a water maker remains on board full time.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

But there be the issue for many.

Longevity and reliability means having the heavier genset
Living aboard full times means stuff like a water maker remains on board full time.

A watermaker can reduce weight. Instead of carrying several hundreds of litres of water, you carry a couple of hundred and a watermaker.

For many people a good sized solar array handles power requirements 90+% of the time, a portable generator is adequate for the rainy spells.

But a sistership to ours has a 5kva diesel genset (and a large watermaker) built in, and it didn't kill it's performance.

[Bigmarv]

44C, what did you during building for reinforcement for drying out?

Also re antifouling? My limited experiences with smaller boats is that the price of drying out is that sand doesn't need to be on paper to remove antifoul.

I favour your approach totally and see these as the only negatives, so wonder how you manage them.

[Jim Cate]

Remembering that I am a monohull sailor, don't bash this question:

Several posts have referred to overloading becoming dangerous at some point. Exactly what becomes dangerous? I assume that you don't mean just getting too damn slow or unmaneuverable, so is it over stressing some part of the rig or hull(s) or what?

Jim

[BigBeakie]

Yes Jim, the heavier a multi is for a given length, the higher the forces due, in part, to the large righting moment. Also unlike a mono, there are the repetitive twisting and wracking forces as one hull is on a wave and the opposite hull is not supported.

To deal with the higher forces on the heavier boat, you have to build it stronger, which usually for production multis means thicker and heavier. But the added weight increases the forces yet again, so you have to......you get the idea.

For example, the mast compression force on a cat sailing upwind in 25 knots in a developed seaway are 1.8 times the mass of the boat. The actual loaded cruising weight, not lightship.

The psi at the mast base are impressive, and the underlying structures need to bear those forces. Some boats are engineered well, and some not so much. That's why in Oz we see some production cats that have arrived & been through some rough seas from over the ditch (NZ) in east coast boatyards having structural repairs.


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[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Bigmarv

44C, what did you during building for reinforcement for drying out?

Also re antifouling? My limited experiences with smaller boats is that the price of drying out is that sand doesn't need to be on paper to remove antifoul.

I favour your approach totally and see these as the only negatives, so wonder how you manage them.

There is extra glass, and a sacrificial layer of plywood on the keel panels.

I do apply a couple of extra coats of antifoul on high wear areas, the bows, rudder leading edges, around the waterline, and on the part of the keel panels the boat sits on.

Generally that seems to work out well. A couple of times the antifoul has been getting a bit thin on the bottom by the time we hauled out, but that just saved a bit of sanding.