Weighing down performance cats

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Remembering that I am a monohull sailor, don't bash this question:

Several posts have referred to overloading becoming dangerous at some point. Exactly what becomes dangerous? I assume that you don't mean just getting too damn slow or unmaneuverable, so is it over stressing some part of the rig or hull(s) or what?

Jim

It's an interesting question. I haven't heard of a
modern performance cat suffering from a structural failure due to overloading. Funnily enough the few structural failures I am aware of have happened to heavy production cats.

Generally performance boats are built using better materials and techniques. And are consequently quite a bit more expensive for a given size.

I suppose it's possible to overload a boat to that point, but it seems the owners of these boats are sensible enough to avoid it.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

A watermaker can reduce weight. Instead of carrying several hundreds of litres of water, you carry a couple of hundred and a watermaker.

For many people a good sized solar array handles power requirements 90+% of the time, a portable generator is adequate for the rainy spells.

But a sistership to ours has a 5kva diesel genset (and a large watermaker) built in, and it didn't kill it's performance.

Yep. Batteries and water are the heaviest things on a multihull. If by having a watermaker you only need to carry 200l rather than 500l you've saved 300kg right there. Nothing else would ever get you close to anything like that sort of saving, other than perhaps kicking off your wife and family, or the crew.

[css145hs]

Originally Posted by Go Wildcats

What strikes me the most looking at the weights is that production cats are so much heavier. Where is the weight coming from? A lagoon 46 is TWICE that of a Outremer 45, and 10K more than even a Lagoon 440. This is what is driving my question. My thinking is that most of the weight is directly related to comfort. Yes, some is to resin and fiberglass for wider hulls, but it can't be that Lagoon is using twice as much as Outremer.

This surprised me at first too until I started to understand the construction methods better and how they differ. Others have indicated that as well but maybe not with enough emphasis. It’s a trade off of speed of construction and cost vs weight. You can save many tons of weight in a 50’ cat based on construction technique targeting the same strength. If they have to pour massive volumes of polyester resin and chopped strand mat, it’s going to be quick to build and cheap to build but very heavy.

When I started pursuing my custom build I was very obsessed on weight. Thinking it was super critical (not that it can be ignored completely). Eventually I relaxed Early on I remember comparing it with the outremer options, where you can save something like 300kg with the carbon bulkhead. So I went to my builder and asked what we’d save with carbon instead of glass and it was almost nothing. The reason being that outremer doesn’t state that they are also changing more than just the glass vs carbon bit, it’s more akin to how you’d build a hand laid epoxy boat for that one part. They do this for a few options.

How heavily it is tooled for inner hulls that get dropped into outer hulls, also make a large difference, etc. Obviously building furniture into the boat and finishing the hulls to be directly seen takes more time and money but it’s alao a lot lighter and often stronger. It’s simply things like that, repeated 10k times over the build. So yea it can end up like half the weight and still have just as many cruising and passage making toys. It will have less storage space though

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

But there be the issue for many.

Longevity and reliability means having the heavier genset
Living aboard full times means stuff like a water maker remains on board full time.

Some will say yes and some no, I see your point but it still comes down to what makes you happy. It sounds to me the OP would be happier in a fast boat and wants to know if he can have it with the mod cons. I'm saying you can you just have to be thoughtful before you buy it and use it. Where in a heavier luxury boat you might not need to worry about it so much.

It might not be as convenient but things like the little Honda 2200i generators have a good life span with good reliability if that's enough. I would expect 10 years from one. I know the one your thinking about is probably hard mounted for the life span of the boat but I'm happy with 10 years for $165 per year and leave it at home most trips. The watermaker as 44 says is a weight saver on long trips, but again I don't need one on the boat for most trips, I hold 160lt which will last the best part of a week so it sits in the shed.

[Go Wildcats]

Thanks for the great information, all.

[Fishpants]

I second Go Wildcats’ post- it amazes me that there have been 50 posts in response to my original post!
Thanks to all the contributors! As to Dave_S’s comment, yes I would certainly lean towards a performance boat and load it thoughtfully. I really prefer the idea of being able to sail a bit faster for a number of reasons, including safety, but also for the fun and satisfaction. I think I could still live comfortably and not feel like I’m sacrificing.

Like I said off the top, I’m not in a position to buy quite yet, but this has been great information, and has given me plenty to think about. No doubt I’ll be posting more questions as I get closer to a buying decision.

[CatNewBee]

Performance, comfort and costs are antagonistic goals, you need to make compromizes.

A Honda generator is nice, you can use it for a watermaker, but he can't power 4-5 A/C units of 45000 btu.

Of course you can buy a racing cat, that is designed and steamlined for performance and minimal weight, but when you add comfy equipment, he simply will loose his genes.

When you go for a production condomaran on the other hand and do not tick all the options you may be surprized how good it will perform with less weight, and you have the living space and room for your toys.

The third option is to go for a budget boat, less bells and wistles, not fast either, but you can enjoy sailing a decade longer on your budget.

Safety is also an issue for some of us. Racing cats can sail fast out of trouble, but they also can break and flip because of rigorous weight savings and overpowered mast and canvas for high speeds. A condomaran has a conservative rigg for noob charter crews, you will break the mast before you flip the heavy hull, some even have buoyancy foam sections to make them unsinkable. A budget home built cat may be a risk in all points regarding the forces he is exposed to. Only the builder knows the design goals, but most are on the saving side and not on the safety.

[44'cruisingcat]

You really think those are the only options? Racing boat, condomaran or budget home build?

You've never heard of performance oriented cruising boats? Or boats aimed at private buyers who cruise and like to sail, rather than charter operators?

I find it amazing how some people only seem to be able to think in extremes.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Performance, comfort and costs are antagonistic goals, you need to make compromizes.

A Honda generator is nice, you can use it for a watermaker, but he can't power 4-5 A/C units of 45000 btu.

Of course you can buy a racing cat, that is designed and steamlined for performance and minimal weight, but when you add comfy equipment, he simply will loose his genes.

When you go for a production condomaran on the other hand and do not tick all the options you may be surprized how good it will perform with less weight, and you have the living space and room for your toys.

The third option is to go for a budget boat, less bells and wistles, not fast either, but you can enjoy sailing a decade longer on your budget.

Safety is also an issue for some of us. Racing cats can sail fast out of trouble, but they also can break and flip because of rigorous weight savings and overpowered mast and canvas for high speeds. A condomaran has a conservative rigg for noob charter crews, you will break the mast before you flip the heavy hull, some even have buoyancy foam sections to make them unsinkable. A budget home built cat may be a risk in all points regarding the forces he is exposed to. Only the builder knows the design goals, but most are on the saving side and not on the safety.

Who goes cruising on a racing cat? I'd wager very few people. And I'm sure those people have weighed the pros and cons and made a choice that suits them.

A performance cruising cat, on the other hand, can take more payload than a racing cat and is designed for its purpose. Any cat, or mono for that matter, sailed to its design parameters is fine. There's plenty of well designed boats available for home builders, or pros, to build that are perfectly safe, light and fast. Many with bouyancy compartments. They're not unsafe or about to breakup because they're light; that's just being silly.

You don't seem to be taking the 'Lagoons aren't as fast as performance cats' fact well. There are many Lagoons who have circumnavigated or cruise the coasts very comfortably. They're very good boats and meet their design brief well.

They're just not designed as fast boats, however. That's ok. If that fits your needs and wants then it's a great purchase. No need to make stuff up about faster cats to justify it or anything else. If you want a fast boat then sell your Lagoon and buy one and deal with the smaller payload or even buy longer.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Performance, comfort and costs are antagonistic goals, you need to make compromizes.

A Honda generator is nice, you can use it for a watermaker, but he can't power 4-5 A/C units of 45000 btu.

Of course you can buy a racing cat, that is designed and steamlined for performance and minimal weight, but when you add comfy equipment, he simply will loose his genes.

When you go for a production condomaran on the other hand and do not tick all the options you may be surprized how good it will perform with less weight, and you have the living space and room for your toys.

The third option is to go for a budget boat, less bells and wistles, not fast either, but you can enjoy sailing a decade longer on your budget.

Safety is also an issue for some of us. Racing cats can sail fast out of trouble, but they also can break and flip because of rigorous weight savings and overpowered mast and canvas for high speeds. A condomaran has a conservative rigg for noob charter crews, you will break the mast before you flip the heavy hull, some even have buoyancy foam sections to make them unsinkable. A budget home built cat may be a risk in all points regarding the forces he is exposed to. Only the builder knows the design goals, but most are on the saving side and not on the safety.

There is so much in this post that is factually inaccurate -

- Performance cats aren't full on ex racers. They are developed from some of the lessons learnt from racers.
- People have sailed for hundreds of years without AC. Many people like me actively do not want AC. If you put it on my boat I would sell it. I anchor out and open hatches.
- Safety -really? The idea being peddled here is that safety is only about stability where heavy cats have higher numbers. But safety is also about not slipping on deck, having better sheeting arrangements, helming from a low position that is closer to the centre of gyration, having good field of view, lower sheet loads, being able to safely surf a bar entrance, using lighter ground tackle and heaps more. I think one of the most dangerous parts of sailing a large 45ft condocat we shared an anchorage with was putting the reefing lines in. The boom was about 8 feet or more above the deck.

I am happy if you like your Lagoon but to think that is sails as well as an Oram, Grainger, Pescott or similar when these are fully loaded for cruising is not factual. The only time I have ever been paced by a Lagoon, even when kitted up for a month long cruise is when we were both motoring. Be happy with your boat, I am with mine. Mine has less room and fewer trinkets, it is also faster but not less safe - she is really strong and after 19 years I would have sold her if she worried my wife or me.

[CatNewBee]

I pointed out the 3 extremes on the triangle, there are a lot models in between, but you cannot have all in one. You always must compromize either comfort or speed or price.

If you want high speed and comfort you end up at very high costs.

You always sacrifice safety for spead, simply by over canvasing. Daggerboards are great for pointing but can rip your hull when hitting something.

Light dessign usually makes the hulls thinner, what also can lead to more damage when hitting a log or some obstacle.

You cannot have all, you must chose and fit it to your budget.

[tp12]

Ok, you're talking rubbish now.

Performance cats don't need to stay over canvassed to get speed because they have fine hulls and less weight. They often are designed with less canvas because they don't need as much. This means lighter loads than the condo cat ... Easier sail handling ...

Dagger boards are mostly designed with sacrificial bottoms with the cases stronger so the hulls don't suffer damage from a grounding. And they're not always down, depending on your point of sail.

Light design does not necessarily mean less strength. It means different materials in different places using different techniques.

Do you think that designers of performance cats aren't aware of the characteristics of these boats and potential weak points and design around them? You should spend some time reading up on various designs and what the designers have focused on instead of talking bollocks. You should quit while you're behind.

[CatNewBee]

This is whishfull thinking.

If you design a vehicle for speed, you optimize it to this goal, that means remove anything that does not contribute to the goal. More power than needed to go from A to B is obvious.

What you are talking about are condomarans that look fast, like putting a spoiler and fat tires on a family sedan or RV. If you want to make it fast, you need to tune the engine and throw out all comfy interior. And even then it will not be a racing car, because it is not built that way.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

This is whishfull thinking.

If you design a vehicle for speed, you optimize it to this goal, that means remove anything that does not contribute to the goal. More power than needed to go from A to B is obvious.

What you are talking about are condomarans that look fast, like putting a spoiler and fat tires on a family sedan or RV. If you want to make it fast, you need to tune the engine and throw out all comfy interior. And even then it will not be a racing car, because it is not built that way.

A performance cruising cat a) is not a racing cat and b) does not have speed as its only goal. You're building a straw man argument. If you can't make your point without a straw man you don't have a point.

You need to spend more time reading about various performance cruising cats and understand their design priorities and where they are positioned in the market. All of your posts o on this subject are demonstrating that you don't have this knowledge.

[CatNewBee]

I see, like a perfoormance RV...