What boatspeed should I expect, as a percentage of True wind?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Thanks guys for your thoughts. And thanks Jmh2002 for the charts too.

We have cheek blocks (with integral jammers) for the jib sheets, but they don't actually "jam" very well. They're ok for small loads, but not very good at all for medium to high loads, and this on a 37m2 jib, which I'd consider fairly small. Harken Element 80mm cheek blocks (2200kg mwl) I may upsize the sheets to 15mm, just to see if I can get the jammers to bite properly.

Great points about the smaller loading on doubled cheekblocks, I'd not thought of that. I'll have a good look at your chart, and calculate the loads properly before purchase, but you've talked me out of the double cheek blocks. I still have an extra pair of 80mm Harken Elements, which I'll use, but I'll stay away from the doubles.

Cheers.
Paul.

Are you using jammers on your jib sheets due to being short of winches?

If possible why not add a winch? It's nice to have a winch for each tack, and certainly makes tacking easier. Safer too. Releasing a loaded jammer can sometimes be a challenge.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The only benefit of an asymmetric spinnaker is using a top down furler rather than a sock with the symmetric spinnaker. The ASY can work for DDW, especially if you can move the tack to the windward hull.

The gennaker/code 0 works all the way down to 160* TWA with the tack moved to the windward bow.

On a reasonably beamy cat you can do without a pole on the headsail, even DDW. All you need to do is set up an outboard sheeting point, we have a block on a strop from our midships cleats. You can use a line from this in conjunction with he normal sheet to basically position the clew exactly where you need it for any point of sail.

An advantage of an assymetric spinnaker is it will work on higher reaching angles than a symmetrical. We dont have a screecher, so the assym fills that gap. Almost.

If we had a screecher, then definitely a symmetrical kite would be better, set up with dual sheets and guys, gybing is simplicity itself.

[arsenelupiga]

one is boatspeeds in flat water.

Now get out on ocean away from islan protection, and you have myriad of combinations.

You may have reached 10 kn in 8 kn true in flat water. But with annoying swell, sails get dumped and you only make 2.5kn

And the other boat may do in same seas 4 kn.

So, is there any known measurement to determine boats 'sea state adaptability' ? I think this performance is more usable for ocean going vessel.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Are you using jammers on your jib sheets due to being short of winches?

If possible why not add a winch? It's nice to have a winch for each tack, and certainly makes tacking easier. Safer too. Releasing a loaded jammer can sometimes be a challenge.

I have a winch for each tack; the jammers were added so I could jam the jib sheet (Port side) when I want to use that winch for the main halyard, when reefing. Unfortunately, when I'm reefing, there seems to be a lot of wind , and the jammers slip. They slip even in 15 knots, if going upwind.

Even with the jib reefed, they don't seem to be as efficient as I'd hoped. I have to reef the jib much deeper than I'd like, then reef the main, then let the jib back out. Normally, I'd prefer to have a full jib out when I have a single reef in the main. But to do this, I have to reef the jib, jam the sheet, reef the main, then release the jib and retrim. This is only necessary on Stb tack, as the main halyard's on port.

I also like to jam the jib sheets when I'm using the jib to "shade" the code zero, when letting it out in heavier winds, as I need that winch for the code zero sheet. I plan to do this if/when I'm being lazy, and enjoying an easy sail, and some fast cat comes up from behind with more sail up!

I'll try thicker sheets first, to see if I can get them to work properly. I'm very short on space in that area, so an extra winch would be pretty tight. There's only about 50cm between the jammer and the winch, so there's little room for a clutch (though as a last resort, I think I can rig one up).

I'll find a photo to post later.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Tupaia]

How many winches do you have?

Can you post a picture of your cockpit layout.

I think perhaps you need one or even two additional winches.

Having jammers on jib sheets IMO is unsatisfactory. When the chips are down and you are subject to a microburst or acceleration zone between islands or headlands not being able to dump the sheets could lead to a capsize.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I have a winch for each tack; the jammers were added so I could jam the jib sheet (Port side) when I want to use that winch for the main halyard, when reefing. Unfortunately, when I'm reefing, there seems to be a lot of wind , and the jammers slip. They slip even in 15 knots, if going upwind.



Even with the jib reefed, they don't seem to be as efficient as I'd hoped. I have to reef the jib much deeper than I'd like, then reef the main, then let the jib back out. Normally, I'd prefer to have a full jib out when I have a single reef in the main. But to do this, I have to reef the jib, jam the sheet, reef the main, then release the jib and retrim. This is only necessary on Stb tack, as the main halyard's on port.



I also like to jam the jib sheets when I'm using the jib to "shade" the code zero, when letting it out in heavier winds, as I need that winch for the code zero sheet. I plan to do this if/when I'm being lazy, and enjoying an easy sail, and some fast cat comes up from behind with more sail up!



I'll try thicker sheets first, to see if I can get them to work properly. I'm very short on space in that area, so an extra winch would be pretty tight. There's only about 50cm between the jammer and the winch, so there's little room for a clutch (though as a last resort, I think I can rig one up).



I'll find a photo to post later.



Cheers.

Paul.

What do you mean by jammers? You don’t mean cam cleats nor clutches, so do you mean the press in static jammer? or like this ? If so, neither, even if sized appropriately, is suitable for the loads on your boat.

Just get clutches, particularly ones that can be released under load. With fairleads or deck organisers you can use one or two winches for a whole host of lines.

You have a self tacking jib I believe. If so, it should be fine all out to second reef main. Why do you need to reef the jib to reef the main? That seems really weird.

For safety, every sheet that is loaded by a sail should be instantly releasable. Usually that means at least two sheets - the main and the headsail. Ensure that your setup lets you do this. A reverse wrap on a self tailing winch, or really powerful clutches that can release under load, are the best way. Cam cleats arenOK if they can handle the loads. Jammers, cleats, etc just don’t cut it.



Regarding thick sheet, that’s not necessarily a good thing. If you’re using polyester sheets (we are) then thicker ones will reduce stretch. But make sure that they will run freely and easily - your blocks and everything else needs to be sized for what you’re using, at the lower end of the range.

[GRIT]

Thanks FxyKty for your helpful post.

My apologies to all, for using the term Jammers. I don't know when it started, but I didn't correct myself, and misled the group. I'm usually accused of being too pedantic, so this just proves I can go the other way too.

What I was calling "jammers" harken calls "lockoff". They're more like a half cam cleat that pinches the line against the sheave on the foot block.

I only use them as a temporary measure: to hold the jib sheet (only on Stb tack) while I use that winch for the halyard, for reefing. So they're used for 3 minutes at a time. But, since they don't hold all that well, I tend to reef the jib, before reefing the mainsail. It's inefficient, so I'm looking for alternatives to that setup.

There isn't a lot of room for a clutch, between the foot block and the winch, so I'd hoped these "lockoffs" would do the trick. They don't.

My sheets live on the winches, while we're sailing.

To help clear up some descriptive issues, I took a video this morning: https://youtu.be/hP54Jv-VHaE

At nearly 7 minutes long, it's the second longest video I've ever made; and I had to talk in this one! A monumental effort.

As a side note. Some may notice the line organizers on the sides of the cockpit don't match. The stainless ones were an experiment, but the bungee organizers are what will be replacing the stainless ones.


Cheers.
Paul.

[jmh2002]

Thanks for the video

[GRIT]

You're welcome.

Perhaps it'll save folks from having to imagine how things are laid out, using my less than perfect descriptions.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Tupaia]

Yes, very narrow cockpit not much room for winches, you would still really benefit from 2 more winches. Gunboat gets around the limitations of this layout by having four fingers protruding into the cockpit but it doesn't look like this is feasible on your boat.

If it was my boat I would replace the foot-block-jammers on each side with dedicated sheet winches that would work for both jib and screecher/code zero sheets, possibly even go for handed winches, or move your existing winches to there and add two "smaller" halyard winches in the old location. You may have to triangulate the corners of the cockpit to achieve enough space. Remember also an additional headsail will also add another furling line.
It's not my boat so please just accept this as a suggestion but might give you some alternative ideas.

[GRIT]

Tupaia. Thanks for your thoughts on the winch issue, and the nice sketch.

I agree, two dedicated winches would be nice to have, but there isn't really room for winches, where you suggested. I could build an extension of the deck into the cockpit, to accommodate the new winches, but having two extra winches means the two I have are only used for the halyards, which means they'd be underused; and I couldn't put these winches in the cockpit area, with smaller winches for the halyards, due to the large motors hanging off the bottom of each winch. I'd then have to close off that area, to hide the motors. Which is seems like a lot more work than installing a self tacker, or adding a small ramp to install a clutch.

I originally designed the cockpit, winches and blocks, for a self tacking jib; and it seems the non self tacking jib is the crux of the issue.

If I recut our jib and install a self tacking jib track, it seems like all my problems would disappear.

I would not be reefing the main while using that winch for a schreecher, code 0, or spinnaker sheet.

I think the solution is to install a clutch for the port side jib sheet, or install a self tacking jib.

Either of those options frees up the port side winch for use by the main halyard, without too much effort.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter, it is appreciated.

Cheers.
Paul.

[fxykty]

Do you mind if I ask why you are installing electric winches? I would only use an electric winch for the main halyard, but even that is not that much work to jump by hand (about 1 minute of higher heart rate work for our very heavy 80sqm HydraNet mainsail on a 2:1 halyard). They’re very heavy, eat lots of power, and don’t provide much benefit. YMMV

Wouldn’t a winch right or right angle drill be just as useful and not cost you as much?

[GRIT]

I don't mind at all.

We've always kept our boats simple; but since we were building from scratch, and aren't getting any younger, we decided to treat ourselves.

My wife can now hoist and trim the sails herself, which makes her smile. Electric winches are a true equalizing force. She can do everything I can do.


It also happened that when we made that decision, we could afford the weight, and the price. I estimate that neither of these will be true after we start cruising, full time again.

As an aside, we now sail for the shortest trips, because it's no trouble at all to hoist, or trim, the sails.

They are not that power hungry. The sheet winches draw 60 to 80 amps, for less than two seconds a pop. Unless we're short tacking, they would likely use less than 10 ah in 24 hours of coastal sailing; and far less for offshore work.

Cheers.
Paul.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I don't mind at all.

We've always kept our boats simple; but since we were building from scratch, and aren't getting any younger, we decided to treat ourselves.

My wife can now hoist and trim the sails herself, which makes her smile. Electric winches are a true equalizing force. She can do everything I can do.


It also happened that when we made that decision, we could afford the weight, and the price. I estimate that neither of these will be true after we start cruising, full time again.

As an aside, we now sail for the shortest trips, because it's no trouble at all to hoist, or trim, the sails.

They are not that power hungry. The sheet winches draw 60 to 80 amps, for less than two seconds a pop. Unless we're short tacking, they would likely use less than 10 ah in 24 hours of coastal sailing; and far less for offshore work.

Cheers.
Paul.

For hoisting the main sure, makes sense.

But why for trimming sheets? I thought you had a 95% self-tacking jib? Even if not self-tacking, that’s a minimal amount of sheet. But if you have an overlapping genoa then that of course does have more sheeting required. The main when tacking shouldn’t need any sheet, just traveller, for which I saw you have a powered Antal unit (can you see the traveller from your forward cockpit?). We sailed on an Amel 54 with all electric winches - it was quite novel to use push buttons. A bit noisy, but effective. Not so good at providing load feedback, but I’m sure you get used to that and don’t pull clews out of sails.

We are in our early 50s and fully manual and my wife, half my size, can do everything that I can at nearly the same speed, except for the main halyard. That one she has to wind all the way up and that takes time and effort. I see a right angle drill in our future. BTW, our halyard/reef line winches are on our mast (one on each side) and our sheet/traveller/running backstay winches are on either side of our cockpit (2 on each side). It’s an old fashioned layout but works just fine for single and double handing, with the autopilot doing the steering.

The trickiest job is slab reefing the main on a broad reach or downwind - then you need two winches just for the main - one to control the main halyard and another to control the clew. Make sure your winches are set up for this.

[GRIT]

Thanks for your comments fxykty.

No self tacking jib. This has been covered in a few posts now. Please read back a few posts, I'm on my phone and dislike typing with my thumbs.

I don't know what else to tell you. I think it's impossible to justify one's personal choices, to one who disagrees with those choices. We simply wanted to have electric winches, for our own reasons, and proceeded accordingly.

The clew is handled with the single line reefing on the first two reefs, and that line goes to a winch on the bulkhead, as shown on the video. The clew line for the third reef goes to the same winch, on the bulkhead, as the first two reefs.

The video explains the self tacking jib, and reefing winch, so I'm guessing you're somewhere with poor internet svc.

I find that the beauty of a particular location, is often inversely related to the availability of the internet. . Congrats, I hope that rule holds true for wherever you are now.

Thanks for your interest.

Cheers.
Paul.