What boatspeed should I expect, as a percentage of True wind?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Thanks for your comments fxykty.

No self tacking jib. This has been covered in a few posts now. Please read back a few posts, I'm on my phone and dislike typing with my thumbs.

I don't know what else to tell you. I think it's impossible to justify one's personal choices, to one who disagrees with those choices. We simply wanted to have electric winches, for our own reasons, and proceeded accordingly.

The clew is handled with the single line reefing on the first two reefs, and that line goes to a winch on the bulkhead, as shown on the video. The clew line for the third reef goes to the same winch, on the bulkhead, as the first two reefs.

The video explains the self tacking jib, and reefing winch, so I'm guessing you're somewhere with poor internet svc.

I find that the beauty of a particular location, is often inversely related to the availability of the internet. . Congrats, I hope that rule holds true for wherever you are now.

Thanks for your interest.

Cheers.
Paul.

Sorry, didn’t watch the video before - I’m old school and don’t like them for information. We’re still land life in Auckland with less than three months to go (departure party is 12 June), so can’t use bad internet as an excuse.

Watched it now - great show of what you’ve got. Really nice and I get the electric winch for the main sheet now. But does that winch double as the winch for the reefing lines? If so, that could cause problems when downwind reefing as you need to juggle both lines and the halyard.

Regarding the jib sheets, if the jammer block you’ve got doesn’t work then get rid of it. How about positioning a foot block without the jammer out to the side half a metre or so, then come back to a clutch side by side with the proposed gennaker clutch? The jib lead block should be OK to articulate for the 30-60* of sheet angle from the lead to the new foot block, or replace the pulley with an LFR.

I saw the control for the main sheet inside the cabin. Does it have a dump function? And can you control the headsail sheet winches from the cabin? I’m guessing there’s some spray so you wouldn’t normally have the door open while sailing?

[GRIT]

Hi Fxykty.

No problem, I'm not much into videos either (but I do like to share, so when asked, I film); but sometimes they're even better than pictures, which are supposedly worth 1000 words.
****
Yes, the mainsheet winch is used for the reefing lines, and we have reefed several times downwind. It's not bad really. The sheet is let out with the clutch, as needed, while the reefs are taken in by the winch, while letting down the main about 2 feet at a time (to keep it off the shrouds). Once that's taken care of:
1. the main is re-hoisted,
2. the reef lines cleated,
3. the mainsheet put back on the winch, and tensioned, and off we go.

So far, I've never had to re-tension the mainsheet in the midst of reefing, so I've not had to switch back and forth between mainsheet and reef line. I'm not sure when I'd have to do that, but it hasn't yet been an issue.
***
Can you clarify what an LFR is?
***
Your idea of re-aligning the sheet to go outboard is interesting. I'll have to look at that, but at first glance, I think I'll run into issues getting the line over the track. I'm pretty sure it'll interfere with the jib sheet, which isn't a problem for the code zero, as the jib sheet would not be under tension. It's worth a look though. Lets pause while I look...

I just took a look, and if I kept the foot blocks where they are, and ran the sheet as you suggested, to another set of foot blocks, then to a clutch, then to the original foot blocks... it could work. There'll be more friction, but it could happen.

I'll think about whether or not that'll work better, than somehow rigging a clutch right after the original foot block, between the block and the winch. I only have to do this on the port side, where the mainsail halyard is located.

But if I go with the extra foot blocks, I'd have to do both sides, due to my wife and I both needing a certain symmetry in most things. The extra block, and the zigzagging line, 50cm in each direction, would be too much asymmetry to handle, on just one side.

That was a good exercise in lateral thinking. (Literally lateral!)
If we can't install the clutch after the foot block, it's the most plausible idea yet.
***
The main sheet is not "automatically or electrically" dump-able. I have to take it off the winch, much like anyone else. Though mine is much closer to the helm than some I've seen. It's a compromise.
***
The jib sheets are controlled from the cockpit, and not from the helm. We do not get spray up there, or haven't yet. Though it's a bear when it's raining hard, and we're making good speed.

I've considered making them controllable from the inside, but that would mean another two reversible winches, and they're pretty pricey, at 50% more than a normal electric winch of the same size. I don't think that'll ever be in the cards, though it was fun planning it. I thought another joystick, going left and right, where left would make the port winch pull on the sheet, while the stb let out on it's sheet. It could work, and there's a video showing someone doing just that, but I don't think it's for me. These reversible winches only actually allow the sheet out when it's in tension, so I think there would be practical problems getting the sail past the radar dome.
***
We probably sail with the front door open about 70% of the time. It's open unless it's cold, rainy, noisy, or we just don't want the wind inside the boat.

My wife normally loves the wind coming through the boat, but I'm not really a fan. I get my way 100% of the time though, when it's raining.

That door is amazing on a hot day though, at anchor or otherwise. The wind that comes through there, and out the back door, is phenomenal.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Cheers.
Paul.

PS. I'll bet most folks reading this wish there was a picture to replace these last 1000 words.

[Chotu]

I think I will wait for the conclusion of this thread before planning out my rig. LOL. Thank you very much for going first, GRIT.

I have exactly as much to learn. Probably more.

[GRIT]

Reminds me of that saying about "the second mouse gets the cheese".

Smart fellow.

Cheers, friend.
Paul.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Hi Fxykty.

No problem, I'm not much into videos either (but I do like to share, so when asked, I film); but sometimes they're even better than pictures, which are supposedly worth 1000 words.
****
Yes, the mainsheet winch is used for the reefing lines, and we have reefed several times downwind. It's not bad really. The sheet is let out with the clutch, as needed, while the reefs are taken in by the winch, while letting down the main about 2 feet at a time (to keep it off the shrouds). Once that's taken care of:
1. the main is re-hoisted,
2. the reef lines cleated,
3. the mainsheet put back on the winch, and tensioned, and off we go.

So far, I've never had to re-tension the mainsheet in the midst of reefing, so I've not had to switch back and forth between mainsheet and reef line. I'm not sure when I'd have to do that, but it hasn't yet been an issue.
***
Can you clarify what an LFR is?
***
Your idea of re-aligning the sheet to go outboard is interesting. I'll have to look at that, but at first glance, I think I'll run into issues getting the line over the track. I'm pretty sure it'll interfere with the jib sheet, which isn't a problem for the code zero, as the jib sheet would not be under tension. It's worth a look though. Lets pause while I look...

I just took a look, and if I kept the foot blocks where they are, and ran the sheet as you suggested, to another set of foot blocks, then to a clutch, then to the original foot blocks... it could work. There'll be more friction, but it could happen.

I'll think about whether or not that'll work better, than somehow rigging a clutch right after the original foot block, between the block and the winch. I only have to do this on the port side, where the mainsail halyard is located.

But if I go with the extra foot blocks, I'd have to do both sides, due to my wife and I both needing a certain symmetry in most things. The extra block, and the zigzagging line, 50cm in each direction, would be too much asymmetry to handle, on just one side.

That was a good exercise in lateral thinking. (Literally lateral!)
If we can't install the clutch after the foot block, it's the most plausible idea yet.
***
The main sheet is not "automatically or electrically" dump-able. I have to take it off the winch, much like anyone else. Though mine is much closer to the helm than some I've seen. It's a compromise.
***
The jib sheets are controlled from the cockpit, and not from the helm. We do not get spray up there, or haven't yet. Though it's a bear when it's raining hard, and we're making good speed.

I've considered making them controllable from the inside, but that would mean another two reversible winches, and they're pretty pricey, at 50% more than a normal electric winch of the same size. I don't think that'll ever be in the cards, though it was fun planning it. I thought another joystick, going left and right, where left would make the port winch pull on the sheet, while the stb let out on it's sheet. It could work, and there's a video showing someone doing just that, but I don't think it's for me. These reversible winches only actually allow the sheet out when it's in tension, so I think there would be practical problems getting the sail past the radar dome.
***
We probably sail with the front door open about 70% of the time. It's open unless it's cold, rainy, noisy, or we just don't want the wind inside the boat.

My wife normally loves the wind coming through the boat, but I'm not really a fan. I get my way 100% of the time though, when it's raining.

That door is amazing on a hot day though, at anchor or otherwise. The wind that comes through there, and out the back door, is phenomenal.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Cheers.
Paul.

PS. I'll bet most folks reading this wish there was a picture to replace these last 1000 words.

LFR = low friction ring

Commonly used on racing boats to control headsail sheets with no tracks. Since you already have tracks it probably isn’t worth the work to remove the tracks and change your system. But could be nice to lighten and simplify your jib sheeting.

On our boat we get quite a lot of spray onto our salon front windows in waves (not flat water) in 12+ knots TWS upwind and decent speed. The spray comes mostly from the lee bow and occasionally from the windward bow. Maybe it’s just us? We do have the traditional Danson wide-rounded bows - no sharp cutwaters for us!

At anchor we do have two large salon front hatches and yes, the wind whistles through! With the propane hob we would have to close the hatch on that side to keep the flame from getting blown out.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Could someone please explain the difference between a Code D and an Asymetrical Spinnaker?

Are they the same thing?

Thanks.
Paul.

The Code D would typically be smaller, can sail a little higher and handle a higher wind range than the asym. My Mumby came with a "Code D" (made by UK sails). While my asym is good for ~10 knots AWS and ~80º AWA, the Code D is happy to 15 knots AWS and ~65º AWA.

The main reason the previous owner went the Code D is because he didn't like using the asym (in a sock). If I had to choose, I'd rather have a code 0, seeing as I don't find the asym difficult to handle.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Do you mind if I ask why you are installing electric winches? I would only use an electric winch for the main halyard, but even that is not that much work to jump by hand (about 1 minute of higher heart rate work for our very heavy 80sqm HydraNet mainsail on a 2:1 halyard). They’re very heavy, eat lots of power, and don’t provide much benefit. YMMV

My boat came with two electric winches which are used for the genoa sheets and main halyard. I'm in the middle of replacing the motors and gear boxes on them, so ended up sailing with no electric assistance on the weekend. I was quite surprised that it didn't bother us one bit. If I hadn't have already bought the replacements, I'd probably consider just going without, because they're bloody heavy and stupidly expensive.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

My boat came with two electric winches which are used for the genoa sheets and main halyard. I'm in the middle of replacing the motors and gear boxes on them, so ended up sailing with no electric assistance on the weekend. I was quite surprised that it didn't bother us one bit. If I hadn't have already bought the replacements, I'd probably consider just going without, because they're bloody heavy and stupidly expensive.

I have 1 electric winch for everything except for sheets. I fully agree with GRIT that having an electric winch, especially for the main halyard, is the difference between sailing across the bay and motoring. It also means that reefing can be achieved easily in the worse conditions. Sheet winches effectively just trim in and out so not necessary but if they are dual purpose why not.

[GRIT]

Thanks JustMurph.

It's nice to hear real world usage info to confirm our needs.


Cheers.
Paul.

[GRIT]

Thanks for your comment Tupaia.

It is amazing, the difference in attitude we have with sailing this boat, compared to our 39 foot monohull.

As you said, this one's no effort to rig for sail; even with double the sail area.

Horses for courses...

Cheers.
Paul

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I have 1 electric winch for everything except for sheets. I fully agree with GRIT that having an electric winch, especially for the main halyard, is the difference between sailing across the bay and motoring. It also means that reefing can be achieved easily in the worse conditions. Sheet winches effectively just trim in and out so not necessary but if they are dual purpose why not.

This is about the only part I am sure of at this point. One nice big electric winch for just about everything.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by fxykty

On our boat we get quite a lot of spray onto our salon front windows in waves (not flat water) in 12+ knots TWS upwind and decent speed. The spray comes mostly from the lee bow and occasionally from the windward bow. Maybe it’s just us? We do have the traditional Danson wide-rounded bows - no sharp cutwaters for us!

At anchor we do have two large salon front hatches and yes, the wind whistles through! With the propane hob we would have to close the hatch on that side to keep the flame from getting blown out.

I guess the bows must make the difference, though I suspect we also have more freeboard. I just measured our cutwaters at 13mm wide; they don't kick up much spray. There must have been spray on deck at some point, because we've had to wipe the windows of salt a couple of times at anchor.

I've never been sprayed (in the front cockpit) yet, and other than a couple of heavy wave slaps on the outside of the bow, in quite large seas and winds of 30 knots, I've not seen spray over the deck. I'm sure it'll happen, on a close reach in heavier winds, as you have. But it's not something we've experienced.

I think I could safely say that we experience about as much spray in the front cockpit, as we did in our old monohull aft cockpit. Certain conditions can pick up the seas and spray it on deck, but it's been quite rare so far. Rare enough that I can't remember a time when it's happened.

We've certainly never closed the front door due to spray.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is about the only part I am sure of at this point. One nice big electric winch for just about everything.

My electric winch isn't that big 44/46 my sheet winches are 54's and my working sails are smaller than yours or GRIT's, 65sqm and 43sqm.
If you intend only one winch then allowing for all the clutches can be a challenge, I have 19 clutches.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

My electric winch isn't that big 44/46 my sheet winches are 54's and my working sails are smaller than yours or GRIT's, 65sqm and 43sqm.
If you intend only one winch then allowing for all the clutches can be a challenge, I have 19 clutches.

Heck, we have 6 winches and still have 18 clutches (5 on the mast for the halyards and topping lift, 5 per side for main sheet, traveller, dinghy hoist, running backstays and daggerboards up, and the remainder for jib sheet, jib furler and jib traveller), 4 jammers in the boom for the outhaul and clew reefing lines, and 3 PXR cam cleats for some smaller control lines and staysail furling line. Phew!

[Training Wheels]

Ha, I’ve got you beat! 6 winches and 30 clutches.