What is the most affordable new cruising cat??

[Matt Johnson]

The linked page included option packages and launch/hand over cost for $525k. Base price was $447k.

Originally Posted by Piscis

Matt, the 525k from 2015 is a base list price, no options added, no delivery, no extras, NOT even delivered from building site to harbour. The asking prices on YW reflects a turnkey ready boat with a lot of options, sitting in a marina, ready for take off. 100k has to be added easily.

E.g a brand new L40 lists, baseprice, around 290.000k Euro. Most boats are optioned for around 80-100k Euro. Just look at the price list of the manufacterer...

Adding those numbers we come back to approx. 50% for a 5 year old cat... Ready to go.

John

[barnakiel]

In Vietnam you can find better workforce than in the EU. Asians are more serious about their work. They do care. They may have less training, but you can train people to do a job. You cannot train people to be serious though.


For a short period of time I worked in a QC unit of a big loft considering making sails in Asia. The samples they sew were 100% quality of local sail made in a loft located in one of the prominent sailing countries.


If they can make excellent sails, they can build excellent boats.



b.

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

The linked page included option packages and launch/hand over cost for $525k. Base price was $447k.

Woooop...

Mea culpa!

You are right...

John

[Simon.Sails]

Originally Posted by Piscis

There are a couple of 5-6 year old Nautitech open 40s, Leopard 39s, Lagoon 39 and 400s on YW with an asking price of around 50-60% of new list price. Consider an average 10% discount on that.

Sunsail/Mooring is calculating a value of approx. 50-60% after 5 years in their fleet. So that number does not seems to be too far from the truth.

Just because a seller or brooker sets a YW add of a 10 year old cat with an asking price close to new sticker means that boat its worth it...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for...ort-price:asc/

The cheapest listed Nautitech 40 Open that isn't under a charter contract (first listing) is a 2017 version for USD 283'113, that's a 37% discount to a new 2020 version for 450'000. Perhaps I'm missing something, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. But it seems to me that the average discount of perhaps 30-35% for 5 year old cats seems closer to the mark.

[Simon.Sails]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

In Vietnam you can find better workforce than in the EU. Asians are more serious about their work. They do care. They may have less training, but you can train people to do a job. You cannot train people to be serious though.

For a short period of time I worked in a QC unit of a big loft considering making sails in Asia. The samples they sew were 100% quality of local sail made in a loft located in one of the prominent sailing countries.

If they can make excellent sails, they can build excellent boats.

b.

I can only assume you've never actually worked in (developing) Asia. China has better QC than Vietnam, but both are a far cry from European factories on average. Not saying you can't get good products made, but quality is definitely not an inherent priority of these factories. I should know, I've worked in China for quite a few years.

[introverted]

just some cold hard truths:

if you aren't a high earner, forget about buying new anything. The boat purchase is only the first big expense, nevermind funding your lifestyle. Sounds like you need to put a lot more thought in to the actual decision to cruise and what is a reality in terms of the boat you want and the dreams you have. without knowing your plans, all I can say is buy used. You are young and not a high earner. I remember them days. And buying a 300k dollar boat to go cruising for 5-10 years is something that was just unobtainable. I probably could have done it with a 80k monohull though. And even then I would have been scrounging for money to pay for the lifestyle and all the costs associated with it. if you have a job that can be done while cruising then you have a big advantage. if not, then you now know why most people start cruising when they are a bit older.

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by Simon.Sails

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for...ort-price:asc/

The cheapest listed Nautitech 40 Open that isn't under a charter contract (first listing) is a 2017 version for USD 283'113, that's a 37% discount to a new 2020 version for 450'000. Perhaps I'm missing something, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. But it seems to me that the average discount of perhaps 30-35% for 5 year old cats seems closer to the mark.

Hi Simon,


that 2017 Open 40 for 240K€ is IMHO a great offer. And as you said, it is about 37% below acctual sales price for a three year old boat, without starting price negotiations.



Accoring Whiley Sharpe´s sales analysis of sold catamarans, a price reduction of approx. 10% can be expected in average. Sure, more discount on certain abused, 4B/4H charter boats, and less discounts for well desired Owners Versions... however, i guess 10% can be expected.



This offer from DYC seems to be a not charter bound vessel for 200K€. A 2015 Nautitech Open 40:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...-open-3659851/


For the same price, a FP Lipari from 2014 can be found:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...ri-41-3647752/


Another FP from 2014 for 193K€:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...ution-3701772/


For around 200k€ asking price, there are a few more 5-6 year old boats :


2014 Lagoon 39:



https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...n-390-3608136/


2014 Leopard 39:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...rd-39-3246240/


2013 Lagoon 400 S2:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2013...00-s2-3608633/


Acctually there are a couple of 5 year old Lagoon 39´s in that price range.



However, because of the very volatile Euro/US Dollar exchange rate, it is not that easy to compare prices for EU/US offered boats. Boats listed in € will be more expensive for a US$ based customer when the US$ drops, vise versa... and another question is: are we comparing used boat prices from today with new boat prices from today, or with the price of that specific boat when it was sold 5 years ago...


In any way, i still think that, after price negotiations and final price agreement, 50% for a 5-6 year old boat of the back then sales price is a good number to aim for. Maybe higher for OV, maybe even less for boats in need of TLC from the charter fleet... Just my oppinion of what i found on YW adds.


John

[Byrdman]

Buy something, used, cheap(for a cat), and sail it locally for a few years, then buy your forever boat. By then you may have more money to spend and know what you really want.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Hi Simon,


that 2017 Open 40 for 240K€ is IMHO a great offer. And as you said, it is about 37% below acctual sales price for a three year old boat, without starting price negotiations.



Accoring Whiley Sharpe´s sales analysis of sold catamarans, a price reduction of approx. 10% can be expected in average. Sure, more discount on certain abused, 4B/4H charter boats, and less discounts for well desired Owners Versions... however, i guess 10% can be expected.



This offer from DYC seems to be a not charter bound vessel for 200K€. A 2015 Nautitech Open 40:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...-open-3659851/


For the same price, a FP Lipari from 2014 can be found:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...ri-41-3647752/


Another FP from 2014 for 193K€:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...ution-3701772/


For around 200k€ asking price, there are a few more 5-6 year old boats :


2014 Lagoon 39:



https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...n-390-3608136/


2014 Leopard 39:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2014...rd-39-3246240/


2013 Lagoon 400 S2:


https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2013...00-s2-3608633/


Acctually there are a couple of 5 year old Lagoon 39´s in that price range.



However, because of the very volatile Euro/US Dollar exchange rate, it is not that easy to compare prices for EU/US offered boats. Boats listed in € will be more expensive for a US$ based customer when the US$ drops, vise versa... and another question is: are we comparing used boat prices from today with new boat prices from today, or with the price of that specific boat when it was sold 5 years ago...


In any way, i still think that, after price negotiations and final price agreement, 50% for a 5-6 year old boat of the back then sales price is a good number to aim for. Maybe higher for OV, maybe even less for boats in need of TLC from the charter fleet... Just my oppinion of what i found on YW adds.


John

A 10% price reduction on average may mean some boats are sold at a 50% reduction and others are sold for above asking.
If looking at that well priced Open, don’t expect them to lower the price 10%, look at the realistic value

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Simon.Sails

I can only assume you've never actually worked in (developing) Asia. China has better QC than Vietnam, but both are a far cry from European factories on average. Not saying you can't get good products made, but quality is definitely not an inherent priority of these factories. I should know, I've worked in China for quite a few years.

I can only assume you have never been to Vietnam. Many European factories are not as good as a quality Vietnam factory.

[mako]

Agree. I used to live in Vietnam and almost built a steel boat at a French owned shipyard. The craftsmanship of their commercial boats and their luxury boat wood work was excellent. Pricing was much better than European if course.

[Simon.Sails]

I have worked in China and South East Asia for many years, but don't know much about boat building. As a rule you have to have much more stringent (and expensive) external QC to compensate for shortcuts taken in both Chinese and Vietnamese factories.

I would definitely not agree that Vietnamese factories on average produce better quality than in Europe. It took Volkswagen China about 15 years to achieve the same quality as their European plants. Prices of course are much more competitive in most areas if shipping and delivery time is not a huge concern.

[Simon.Sails]

Originally Posted by Piscis

In any way, i still think that, after price negotiations and final price agreement, 50% for a 5-6 year old boat of the back then sales price is a good number to aim for. Maybe higher for OV, maybe even less for boats in need of TLC from the charter fleet... Just my oppinion of what i found on YW adds.


John

Thanks John, that is a fair overview. I can only hope I actually get that 50% discount for a quality Nautitech Open 40, as that's one of my absolute favorite boats.

Alternative is a new Aventura 37 - same price range but not as fast and a bit smaller - which has pros and cons.

[Pete7]

Sadly the OP seems to have disappeared and not logged in since 31/8.

Pete

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by smj

A 10% price reduction on average may mean some boats are sold at a 50% reduction and others are sold for above asking.
If looking at that well priced Open, don’t expect them to lower the price 10%, look at the realistic value

I agree with you absolutely when it comes to a realistic value of a boat. We both do not know what the realistic value of that 200K€ Open 40 is. It has 6 years of charter on its back, and can be in a "more than need of TLC" shape. DYC, who set that add do know well what they can ask for and they do know well the condition of that boat. And they do know, i guess at least from a psychological point of view, that a boat add asking price should have always at least a bit of negotiation space... to the south...

The List from Mr. Sharpe shows 353 sold boats in 2019. Just ten cats were sold above asking price, 343 sold below asking price. The average percentage of those ten who were sold above asking price was 5,92% above asking price.


John