What is the price point to generally avoid a "project boat" catamaran?

[rabbi]

If your intention is a "turnkey production catamaran less than 10 years old and ready for extended cruising" then I'd say around 250k is the minimum but you will need luck to get the right boat. Around 300k is more realistic.

Worn out charter cats may also be cheaper initially, but once you figure in a refit your are in the same price bracket. But even then it's still an ex-charter cat.

Of course you can find an older cat from exotic manufacturers for much less. Or some DIY cat for half of that amount. But then we are talking about an entirely different thing.

For a cat from the big 3 there is no way you can find one for under 200k that is half ready to go. The market just doesn't allow such bargains.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rabbi

If your intention is a "turnkey production catamaran less than 10 years old and ready for extended cruising" then I'd say around 250k is the minimum but you will need luck to get the right boat. Around 300k is more realistic.

Worn out charter cats may also be cheaper initially, but once you figure in a refit your are in the same price bracket. But even then it's still an ex-charter cat.

Of course you can find an older cat from exotic manufacturers for much less. Or some DIY cat for half of that amount. But then we are talking about an entirely different thing.

For a cat from the big 3 there is no way you can find one for under 200k that is half ready to go. The market just doesn't allow such bargains.

His quote:

(It doesn't need to be new or sexy, just comfortable and seaworthy. I know all boats need upkeep and work, but I'd like something I can spend more time cruising than time tied to a dock repairing critical systems.)
Nothing about 10 years old or newer or being part of the big 3, which to me would be a negative. But either way, he should be able to find a 38-40’ catamaran in decent shape for way less than $200k if he tries.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by smj

His quote:

(It doesn't need to be new or sexy, just comfortable and seaworthy. I know all boats need upkeep and work, but I'd like something I can spend more time cruising than time tied to a dock repairing critical systems.)
Nothing about 10 years old or newer or being part of the big 3, which to me would be a negative. But either way, he should be able to find a 38-40’ catamaran in decent shape for way less than $200k if he tries.

In Europe Never under 200kEURO, I fully agree with rabbi here. Have 2 surveyors as friends which professionally search for clients for bluewater boats and cats, they say it was never so hard to find a suitable cat for an adequate price and in the range till 250k nearly impossible. Market is dry like Sahara and with order books full and a lot damaged cats this year in the med it’s getting even dryer…
I got my Lavezzi in April 2021 for the steal price of 155kEuro for its condition and it was never openly for sale other then the owner put a for sale sign on the cat in the moment a friend walked by and sent me Fotos with owner contact and looked at it in person. 30min later I made a video walkthrough and another 15min later I made a 15k downpayment, this in the middle of the first lockdown due to I could travel for business to the cat when nearly no one could. It’s now valued 265k and I got lately a 280k offer for it.
Additionally here in europe it’s hard to find other then big 3 in the lower price category he is looking, US or Aussi/New Zealand has plenty more brands to choose from.
Still sad I didn‘t get the TRT1200…well I didn’t know better at that time and when I know it was too late…

In US or if he is willing to go to Thailand eg Puket maybe, I don‘t know the market there well…

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

In Europe Never under 200kEURO, I fully agree with rabbi here. Have 2 surveyors as friends which professionally search for clients for bluewater boats and cats, they say it was never so hard to find a suitable cat for an adequate price and in the range till 250k nearly impossible. Market is dry like Sahara and with order books full and a lot damaged cats this year in the med it’s getting even dryer…
I got my Lavezzi in April 2021 for the steal price of 155kEuro for its condition and it was never openly for sale other then the owner put a for sale sign on the cat in the moment a friend walked by and sent me Fotos with owner contact and looked at it in person. 30min later I made a video walkthrough and another 15min later I made a 15k downpayment, this in the middle of the first lockdown due to I could travel for business to the cat when nearly no one could. It’s now valued 265k and I got lately a 280k offer for it.
Additionally here in europe it’s hard to find other then big 3 in the lower price category he is looking, US or Aussi/New Zealand has plenty more brands to choose from.
Still sad I didn‘t get the TRT1200…well I didn’t know better at that time and when I know it was too late…

In US or if he is willing to go to Thailand eg Puket maybe, I don‘t know the market there well…

Maybe that’s the difference, location? I’m not sure where the op is located but he brings up the Gemini catamaran and wanting to sail the. Caribbean, so maybe the US.
A possibility? https://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa...574386001.html

[rabbi]

He wants to avoid projects.
So it's either a relatively new boat or one that has seen a professional refit. After a truly professional refit (not DIY, not jack-of-all-trades refit) the price is in the same range as a 5-8 year old so there is no real difference.


Personally I would not touch anything outside the volume manufacturers unless it was dead cheap. For me the boat is not a lifetime decision as I know I will sell this boat sooner or later. I have bought 4 cats in the last decade so I better get something that has a sizeable market and a predictable market value.

If the Athena is in sail away condition it's a steal. But my personal experience tells me that this is very unlikely.

Bottom line:
The market is dry. About a year ago there were 13 Lagoon 380 listed on YW for Europe (under 10 years old). Today there are 3.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by smj

His quote:

(It doesn't need to be new or sexy, just comfortable and seaworthy. I know all boats need upkeep and work, but I'd like something I can spend more time cruising than time tied to a dock repairing critical systems.)
Nothing about 10 years old or newer or being part of the big 3, which to me would be a negative. But either way, he should be able to find a 38-40’ catamaran in decent shape for way less than $200k if he tries.

this is the correct answer.. .

if OP is willing to walk docks in places "downwind" like rio rulce or panama..expect to get about 20-30% more boat of the same price.
(meaning..if you are respectful(dont ask for more discounts after survey), paying cash/can close fast...you can get a 250-260k cat for your budget)


the negative of buying in those place...
your 1st year cruising will be spent getting back "upwind"

[smj]

Originally Posted by rabbi

He wants to avoid projects.
So it's either a relatively new boat or one that has seen a professional refit. After a truly professional refit (not DIY, not jack-of-all-trades refit) the price is in the same range as a 5-8 year old so there is no real difference.


Personally I would not touch anything outside the volume manufacturers unless it was dead cheap. For me the boat is not a lifetime decision as I know I will sell this boat sooner or later. I have bought 4 cats in the last decade so I better get something that has a sizeable market and a predictable market value.

If the Athena is in sail away condition it's a steal. But my personal experience tells me that this is very unlikely.

Bottom line:
The market is dry. About a year ago there were 13 Lagoon 380 listed on YW for Europe (under 10 years old). Today there are 3.

Never met a used or new boat that didn’t need a couple of projects, but the best way to avoid projects is to keep a boat simple with the least amount of systems.
The difference between a “professional” refit and DIY is you pay for the professional, it doesn’t mean the quality of work will be as good or better than a DIY.
We’ve purchased 11 catamarans in the last 31 years, highest price we’ve paid is $168k and none of those cats were from the biggest volume manufacturers as I don’t like their designs or build quality for the most part. Only had a problem selling one, and made money on all but that one.
Once again I think the difference is location. Maybe not a good supply of used cats in Europe and maybe overpriced? Also maybe not as many good deals in the states as there use to be but they are still there.

[Craig T]

If it saves you a project.....we are currently on a one year career break with our Lagoon 380, having spent 3 years getting her ready to go. We crossed the Atlantic last November from Cape Verde to the Caribbean and will be returning back to Jersey (Channel Islands) by the end of June 2023. We offer the boat for sale preferably soon after arrival in Jersey or now in the Caribbean if necessary.

The boat has the following specification:
Owners version with large heads and shower to starboard (never chartered)
Ultra reliable Yanmar 3GM30F engines (circa 2,500 hours)
Coppercoated 2021 (no need for haulouts)
All new Tru-design skin fittings (including on engines)
Kiwi folding propellers (and originals)
Diesel 240v marine generator
100 litres / hour watermaker
540Ah Lithium battery bank
100Ah battery charger
400w solar
2 X 300 litre water tanks
2 X Victron inverters (800w and 1300w)
Victron solar regulator
Bauer Junior II Dive compressor in bespoke seat box in cockpit
Bespoke large cockpit table
New Lofrans windlass with wired and remote controls
3m Hypalon dingy with Yamaha 15hp engine
All standing rigging and some running rigging replaced 2021
Raymarine Axiom Pro chart plotter, B&G wind instraments, Vesper tranceiver AIS, Raymarine Radar
EPIRB, Iridium Go! Satellite router, Various MOB equipment including AIS transponders for 6 X lifejackets and inflatable Danbuoy
ICOM fixed and portable VHF both with DSC
2 X Mainsails, 2 X Genoas (can be used as butterfly for down wind)
Large symmetrical spinnaker with associated lines and jamming blocks
Electric induction hob, breeadmaker, freezer, pressure cooker, microwave oven, George Foreman, toaster, kettle etc
Original LPG installation still present (but covered) if required in an emergency or if preferred
Rocna anchor and 80m of chain (replaced 2021)
Huge amount of ropes and fenders
Enormous Fortress anchor (for storm) and small fortress (for kedge)
100's of litres of fuel cans
75 litre calarifier recently installed
LED lighting throughout including deck flood lights
2 X electric heads, 12v TV, Stereo, 6 USB outlets
2 X 5kw diesel heaters with outlets in saloon and cabins
Stainless steel keel shoes installed 2021
New rudder bearings 2021
Liferaft serviced 2022
New radar reflector 2022
Exhaust hoses and silencers replaced 2021
Sail drive seals replaced 2021
Uprated fuel filters installed 2021
Many engine spares for main engines, generator, autopilot etc
2 X Spare sail bags etc etc
Hatch seals and some acrylics replaced (no leaks!)
Quality 12v fans
Offshore first aid kit
Trickle vents on deck hatches
3x Sail shade clothes
Bow compartments shelfed and racked
Full set of flags for Caribbean

Vessel owned and all work undertaken by a qualified ex practicing yacht surveyor. Happy to do a full handover.

She has been a great boat, but surplus to requirements when we return to life on land!

First to offer £220,000 or best part thereof.

Further photos / video tour via Whatssap available.

Craig.killip at Gmail dot com

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by smj

Never met a used or new boat that didn’t need a couple of projects, but the best way to avoid projects is to keep a boat simple with the least amount of systems.

Cheapest cat I ever bought was around 150k USD but over 40k went into it for extended vacation cruising. That was a project boat in my book, as it took me two months fulltime to get ready for summer cruising (not ocean crossings, just the Med).

Our current boat was way more money but it came with an empty ToDo list.
The only thing we did before setting sail for the summer was an oil change. The only thing we broke in 4 months cruising was the toilet seat hinges. All of them :-(
A year later there is nothing to fix or do beside maintenance.

So "no project" boats do exist. But most likely not in the price range below 200k.

Originally Posted by smj

The difference between a “professional” refit and DIY is you pay for the professional, it doesn’t mean the quality of work will be as good or better than a DIY.

Depends on the DIY and the professional. There are many "professionals" that deliver DIY quality, and only few DIY that deliver professional quality. At the end it depends on the individual boat.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Cheapest cat I ever bought was around 150k USD but over 40k went into it for extended vacation cruising. That was a project boat in my book, as it took me two months fulltime to get ready for summer cruising (not ocean crossings, just the Med).

Our current boat was way more money but it came with an empty ToDo list.
The only thing we did before setting sail for the summer was an oil change. The only thing we broke in 4 months cruising was the toilet seat hinges. All of them :-(
A year later there is nothing to fix or do beside maintenance.

So "no project" boats do exist. But most likely not in the price range below 200k.



Depends on the DIY and the professional. There are many "professionals" that deliver DIY quality, and only few DIY that deliver professional quality. At the end it depends on the individual boat.

So you didn’t feel the need to ad any equipment or change anything on your new boat to make it your own? That would be truly amazing!
Maybe best to define “project”? Obviously if you purchase a boat that needs work or changes to make it sailable those would be considered projects. But if you purchase a boat that is sail away ready and only needs things done to suit your lifestyle/needs, would that be considered a project boat?
Case in point. We purchased a PDQ 36 in 2015 for $105k that was in absolutely beautiful shape, was well equipped and in sail away condition but we wanted dinghy davits and more solar so we added an arch and a 400 watt panel on the arch. Should that be considered a project boat?
The PDQ36 probably has the best layout for live aboard in a smaller cat and is much better built than the majority of newer cats, in my opinion. So if we were to have spent $10-15k on her and added 2’-4’ stern extensions then there’s your 38’-40’ cat for $120k or under!
It warms my heart that we’ve gone from a must have $350k to purchase a 38-40’ cat in good shape to now a must have of $200k. Let’s keep going and see if we can bring those estimates down to below $150k!

[smj]

🤣🤣🤣

[rabbi]

Adding equipment / systems to a perfectly fine boat doesn't make that a project boat in my book. Project boat to me means it has issues to fix. Things are worn, broken, damaged.

The 150k cat + 40k refit was years ago when the market was very different. No way you could get a similar boat today for the same price. Many things had to be fixed and repaired, including all new instruments and autopilot, tracing lots of electronic and electrical issues. Some maintenance bullets years overdue. Overall worn and a lot of work to bring her cruise ready.


Our current cat has not had any repair / fix projects at all. The boat itself came cruise ready (say a few months Med) but not set up for a RTW trip and not with all possible creature comforts.
Of course we added equipment but that is our choice of comfort and not what I consider a project.

A 25year old PDQ with stern extensions is currently listed for 150k. That would certainly not be my choice but I am not the one asking. It's up to the TS to decide what a project boat means to him.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by rabbi

He wants to avoid projects.
So it's either a relatively new boat or one that has seen a professional refit. After a truly professional refit (not DIY, not jack-of-all-trades refit) the price is in the same range as a 5-8 year old so there is no real difference.


Personally I would not touch anything outside the volume manufacturers unless it was dead cheap. For me the boat is not a lifetime decision as I know I will sell this boat sooner or later. I have bought 4 cats in the last decade so I better get something that has a sizeable market and a predictable market value.

If the Athena is in sail away condition it's a steal. But my personal experience tells me that this is very unlikely.

Bottom line:
The market is dry. About a year ago there were 13 Lagoon 380 listed on YW for Europe (under 10 years old). Today there are 3.

would part of it because they stopped making the 380 almost 5 years ago?
..searching for the 380 and the lagoon 40 (the 380's replacement) yields ~32 boats with less than 10 years for sale (today....in europe)

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by P.Marlowe

I'm nearing retirement, and I'm set with a pension for ongoing expenses, but I'm eyeballing my cruising kitty and wondering if I have enough for my start-up costs.

I'd like to purchase a used 38'+ catamaran, something bigger than Gemini or Prout 37. I want to fix any significant issues, kit it out for full-time live-aboard, and sail the Caribbean for a few seasons. It doesn't need to be new or sexy, just comfortable and seaworthy. I know all boats need upkeep and work, but I'd like something I can spend more time cruising than time tied to a dock repairing critical systems.

What minimum amount would I need to get started without taking out a loan or taking on a project boat?

I realize this may be a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" type question, so I'm certainly not looking for a high degree of accuracy. Still, I hope to tap the Cruisers Forum hive mind for a consensus and understanding of today's boat market.

I also know monohulls are less expensive and I can always scale down to match my funds, but I'm trying to look at the equation from the other direction.

Thanks in advance for your consideration and for sharing your experience.

I bought a 50 ft mono that looked in good condition. We paid 100k for it. By the time I got it back to Canada and paid the taxes and everything else we were about 140k. We are now just shy of 400k cdn and we might get 150k for it. You wonder how this could be. Well it is like this

A suite of sails for this boat is 35k. A motor was 20k, replacing pumps. Shower pumps are $350 each. The boat was wired to 1985 standards with lots of skinny cable that was not up to the job. Add new chargers, solar panels, a radar arch, new breaker panels. new kitchen counter, a heating system, new anchor, new windlass, chain, and it adds up fast.

Buy the best boat you can afford. Let someone else buy the goodies and sell them to you at a depreciated cost.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by chubby

would part of it because they stopped making the 380 almost 5 years ago?
..searching for the 380 and the lagoon 40 (the 380's replacement) yields ~32 boats with less than 10 years for sale (today....in europe)

The 40 is hardly a replacement for the 380. It is the new entry point for Lagoon but it is much more boat volume at 2x the price.


I doubt the time range has any significant impact for the 380. The last ones were layed up mid 2019 IIRC so less than 4 years ago. Very few change hands that quickly, but sales were running low the last few years (only about 25 per year).

If I correct the search to match the same production years (2012 - 2019) as last year YW still shows the same 3 boats. Even looking at 2011 -2019 years it's the same 3 boat (the 2011 one is a dead listing, sold long ago)
So the market for 380 has dried up significantly.