what pole: Spinaker, or Whisker ?

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by pbr

Downwind it is all about projected area and I can assure you, you are not getting it by trimming to the rail, the difference in speed would be noticeable with two similar boats. Offshore the stability of the sail and lack of collapse and fill as the boat rolled would be vastly superior.

OK, if you say so - the best projected area is a sym spi. I started racing cats in 1978 and I have never raced against one with a whisker pole and actually have never seen one on a cat. I can imagine that a pole on long passages might be of benefit to manage a genny deep downwind over long periods - especially for boats not particularly fast - but where a sym spi would have been the better choice. But it makes no sense in short course racing when maneuvering is critical.

Dave

[44'cruisingcat]

Pretty common for us to sail at 130 apparent, it works well, and the jib is quite stable.


Downwind or deep reaching in higher wind, say constantly above 20 knots or so, we really don't need the mainsail at all. So blanketing of the jib isn't a problem.


I guess it also would depend on the sailplan, and the boat's beam. A boat with a big headsail and/or narrow beam is going to benefit from a pole more than one with a smaller headsail/wider beam. Our headsail is only 35 m2, foot length is only about 4.5m, so when sheeted outboard (by about 3.5m) it is quite well extended.

[pbr]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

OK, if you say so - the best projected area is a sym spi. I started racing cats in 1978 and I have never raced against one with a whisker pole and actually have never seen one on a cat. I can imagine that a pole on long passages might be of benefit to manage a genny deep downwind over long periods - especially for boats not particularly fast - but where a sym spi would have been the better choice. But it makes no sense in short course racing when maneuvering is critical.

Dave

Of course racing cats have nothing in common with what we are talking about, since they sail a high angles and jibe a lot, hopefully playing wind shifts downwind.

[tomfl]

Have to wonder about this racing cats verses cruising cats discussion. I am guessing a Gemini or Catalac is kinda at one end and something like a Gunboat or Outie at the other end. Problem is most of the cats I see are somewhere in between. This leads me to say the decision to use a pole is somewhere in between.

Gotta say I would not be flying a main in 20 plus knots going deep downwind, especially in big waves. Also have to wonder about a bridle between the bows. Would the advantages outweigh the added complexity.

Bottom line for me is the KISS theory.

Keep It Simple Sweetie.

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[django37]

But the question was: What pole? I tend to agree with 2hulls: A pole is not nessecary, but if you want one, get a long strong carbon spinnaker pole for an asy.spi. Showing how far the tack of my asy.spi. comes to windward of the weather hull at 130-150 AWA. This is of course a slow L380..

[mark_morwood]

I agree with the school of no real need for a pole while cruising, but we usually don't fly the main when far off the wind and we have a choice of head sails. We have a smallish jib on a furler for 25kts+, 100m2 reacher/code 0 on a sprit with a continuous line furler for 15-25kts (not a perfect off wind sail, but works), and an assymetric spin in a sock for <15kts that we run the tack line to the windward bow (a symmetric would actually be better). All of these options end up giving us enough boat speed that it is usually sea-state that limits us.

But, this is on a relatively light catamaran, with a wide beam, with a choice of head sails. If you only had a big jib, then I can see the desire for a pole.

For the poster questioning the complexity of the bridle between the bows, in our case it is very simple. We just run two tack lines, one down each side of the boat, through a block on the bow and up to the tack of the spinnaker. By adjusting the length of the tack lines you can position the spinnaker tack anywhere from the windward bow to the leeward bow. In our case we have the jib winches free for that when running the spinnaker so it is very easy.

Mark.

[monte]

If were not flying a parasailor, we are wing in wing 160-175 degrees, with the lazy jib sheet taken out to the shroud so we have pretty good adjustment between the sheet, lazy sheet and jib. Holds it pretty wide and steady and we can adjust the shape fairly well. Same with a broad reach where cars might be too far inboard, just take the lazy sheet out to the stay. Maybe not the fastest but it's pretty easy. Would probably only do it in under 10K or if were lazy to put up the PS. PS does anything up to 8-30K 90-180 degrees and after that it's just the jib usually. Not very high tech cruisers looking for simplicity and minimising stuff on board, but it works for us ( maybe because we don't know any better... )