Which Cats can actually sail?

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CarlF

One question is what does “actually sail” mean.

Cats with daggerboards, carbon fiber construction, and minimal accommodations are more like stripped out racing monohulls. Exciting boats to sail but not what most cruisers are looking for.

Agree for the most part, but having spent time on a carbon fiber HH55, its living accommodations are pretty damn nice! The price tag isn’t for the faint of heart though for sure.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CarlF

One question is what does “actually sail” mean. The surprise to me is that just about any modern cat (assuming it has folding props, good sails, and good sail trim) will outsail most heavy cruising monohulls like Oysters - even to windward based on VMG.

A case of comparing apples with apples.

Originally Posted by CarlF

Cats with daggerboards, carbon fiber construction, and minimal accommodations are more like stripped out racing monohulls. Exciting boats to sail but not what most cruisers are looking for.

Ah... the wood, to the untrained eye performance cats maybe look a bit spartan because they tend not to have wood or fancy trim. The accommodations are palatial by comparison to racing monos with their pipe berths and rudimentary ablutions, add a bit of colour and the interiors can be spectacular just no weight.

[cory_reinking]

Originally Posted by jghaft

A lifelong monohull sailor, I recently chartered a 42 foot catamaran. Loved the roominess, stability, maneuverability under power, and convenient RIB storage. However, this boat had the sailing qualities of a dairy barn.

Any suggestions on cats in that size range that can actually sail?

We just returned a few days ago from chartering a Nautitech 44 Open in the BVI. I’ve owned a few monohulls and my wife and I did a season of cruising on a 33’ Beneteau in Pacific Mexico in 2008. I’m also a sailing instructor and race on a J/105. As far as production cruising cats, Nautitech doesn’t make as many performance compromises since they don’t focus their sales on the charter market. I was somewhat impressed with the upwind performance. We could do about half the wind speed at 50-55 apparent (60-65 degrees true) in 12-16 knots of wind. We definitely dropped 1/4 of our boat speed when we took it to 40 degrees apparent (45-50 degrees true). This was with Dacron square top main and self tacking jib. That self tacking jib was horrible to get trimmed well in anything other than a close reach. I’m sure that comes as no surprise to any sailor, but it was my first experience with one. We fell off to 90 degrees true in 18 knots and sustained just over 9 knots of boat speed. I understand that same point of sail with the code sail up would keep that boat in the low teens for boat speed in 20 knots of wind. We “raced” a Lagoon 450s close reaching and totally destroyed them. We also “raced” a Lagoon 50 close reaching and definitely outperformed them, but it wasn’t as embarrassing for them as it was for the 450s.

If you look at the polars for a cat, you can usually see they do quite well on or near a beem reach compared to a monohull, but tend to suffer the further you get from a beem reach. Of course you can’t get the main trimmed well when sailing off the wind due to the aft swept shrouds and lack of a vang, so having a good headsail inventory can make a huge difference in both reaching and downwind performance.

I think we all know you can’t have performance, luxury, and affordability with a multihull. At best you can pick two. And personally, I think cats are a game of compromise to an even greater extent than with monohulls. I found the Nautitech design philosophy to be a reasonable balance of performance, luxury, and affordability, which is why we chartered one for a week. It helped to confirm what I’d learned from researching them and still keeps them at the top of my list.

Also worth noting that the aft outboard helms of a Nautitech deploy mechanical steering like a monohull. It still doesn’t have the feel of a monohull, but far better feel than the hydraulic steering of most cats with bulkhead or fly bridge helm position.

[s/v Jedi]

The simple answer: cats 50’ and up sail very well.

Some smaller cats, built for performance, sail very well too, I saw the Young Barnacles on Youtube defeat a monohull on upwind sailing with authority but these special cases do not have the load carrying capability for cruising in comfort (keep as light as possible).

[Glenn C]

Originally Posted by fcftampa

I´d like to share this charts I've downloaded somewhere a while ago. Sorry can't find who to credit for creating them.

These are from the Multihull Dynamics site. Very interesting info there.

[JohnyV]

Check out a Nautitech 40 or the newer 44. They both sail extremely well, are well put together by production boat standards, have everything you're looking for, high bridgedeck, narrow hulls, reasonably light, big rigs but are still plenty comfortable. The aft helms aren't everyones cup of tea but I love them on my Open 46, it feels like sailing a boat rather than driving a tanker! Pair one with hydranet sails and a code 0 and you'll have a ball.

[Henr1y]

you had me at "reasonably light!" Those are definitely the hallmarks of a performance-oriented catamaran.

I haven't had the chance to sail either the Nautitech 40 or 44 myself, but everything you've described is exactly what I'm craving for myself, ugh

[catsketcher]

I always shake my head at the US centred and charter oriented comments on performance cats. No matter how may times Fxytky or myself or others let people know that there are plenty of not expensive daggerboard cats that sail very well with nice family accomodations, someone who doesn't sail performance cats say that the cats we own, sail on and cruise on, don't exist. It is very strange.
Maybe I should just have a cut and paste line. Look at custom cats from Woods, Schionning, Chamberlin, Pescott, Mumby, Grainger and Crowther. Here in Australia we have plenty of people in very nice cats sailing at 45 true to windward, living on board with lots of toys and beating monos every time they sail. If you only look at a heavy production cats then you will obviously find that the cats don't sail too well. As for necessities, my friends have a SChionning 1320 which is palatial and lightning quick, I can't keep up with it. This is a normal 13 metre performance cat. You certainly can spend less than a newish production cat and get a daggerboard cat that sails really well, has lots of room and more than enough volume to float lievaboard payload, but you need to open your mind to the boats that can achieve this.

[smj]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I always shake my head at the US centred and charter oriented comments on performance cats. No matter how may times Fxytky or myself or others let people know that there are plenty of not expensive daggerboard cats that sail very well with nice family accomodations, someone who doesn't sail performance cats say that the cats we own, sail on and cruise on, don't exist. It is very strange.
Maybe I should just have a cut and paste line. Look at custom cats from Woods, Schionning, Chamberlin, Pescott, Mumby, Grainger and Crowther. Here in Australia we have plenty of people in very nice cats sailing at 45 true to windward, living on board with lots of toys and beating monos every time they sail. If you only look at a heavy production cats then you will obviously find that the cats don't sail too well. As for necessities, my friends have a SChionning 1320 which is palatial and lightning quick, I can't keep up with it. This is a normal 13 metre performance cat. You certainly can spend less than a newish production cat and get a daggerboard cat that sails really well, has lots of room and more than enough volume to float lievaboard payload, but you need to open your mind to the boats that can achieve this.

You could get this
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...am-60-9281022/
For about the same price as a Lagoon 40-42. I know which one I would choose.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I always shake my head at the US centred and charter oriented comments on performance cats. No matter how may times Fxytky or myself or others let people know that there are plenty of not expensive daggerboard cats that sail very well with nice family accomodations, someone who doesn't sail performance cats say that the cats we own, sail on and cruise on, don't exist. It is very strange.
Maybe I should just have a cut and paste line. Look at custom cats from Woods, Schionning, Chamberlin, Pescott, Mumby, Grainger and Crowther. Here in Australia we have plenty of people in very nice cats sailing at 45 true to windward, living on board with lots of toys and beating monos every time they sail. If you only look at a heavy production cats then you will obviously find that the cats don't sail too well. As for necessities, my friends have a SChionning 1320 which is palatial and lightning quick, I can't keep up with it. This is a normal 13 metre performance cat. You certainly can spend less than a newish production cat and get a daggerboard cat that sails really well, has lots of room and more than enough volume to float lievaboard payload, but you need to open your mind to the boats that can achieve this.

I keep telling people this but the majority don't listen.


Here is a:


Woods Transit 38S

Overhauling a 57 cat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o-ymIch5aA

Shuttleworth 44 in full charter mode towing a rib. Check out the catamaran wake compared to the wake from the dinghy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynfvd9wV2Dc

Shuttlecat 31/32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am6Y...zF0tDO&index=5

Schonning Arrow 1200

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOAXmR5hh0c

LeRouge Azuli 40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTjQsl32PL8

Schionning Waterline 1320

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RMQNkftqXI

All these cats can actually sail.

[catsketcher]

Those 1320 Schionnings get it on, and the bugger is they invite you over aftewards and they have heaps of room to offer you nibbles on.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Glenn C

These are from the Multihull Dynamics site. Very interesting info there.

The second chart is not from Multihull Dynamics, it's mine.

[ozolli]

Updated chart :

I tried my best to get the light displacement as in ISO mMOC definition, and right upwind sail area, discarding obvious code zero like fore sails.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by ozolli

Updated chart :
snip...
I tried my best to get the light displacement as in ISO mMOC definition, and right upwind sail area, discarding obvious code zero like fore sails.

Your perseverance should be commended it is a tedious exercise to obtain real world displacement data.

How many sail "light displacement" and what is the WL displacement as a ratio? (Payload).

The chart itself does give a general overview but does not address any performance enhancing or degrading characteristics; daggerboards, mini keels, props, sails, hull beam, hull shape, bridge-deck clearance, aerodynamics, transom width etc etc.

So you could end up with a long, light boat for it's length, with fixed props, low bridge-deck, poorly positioned mini keels and a cabin that resembles a barn appearing better than short not so light open bridge deck design with good clearance lifting outboards and daggerboards.

Polars are really the only true measure but theoretical ones supplied by the manufacturers are far removed from truth. Generating your own under sailing conditions is not easy either requiring stable sea state conditions that are not often found especially at higher wind speeds.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

The chart itself does give a general overview but does not address any performance enhancing or degrading characteristics; daggerboards, mini keels, props, sails, hull beam, hull shape, bridge-deck clearance, aerodynamics, transom width etc etc.

That's very true.

This chart is very performance cat and around 40-55ft oriented.

I made it as a first step (kind of short list making) decision tool for me.

To me, one of the first spec not addressed by this chart is the LWL. This is a huge performance lever.

When I decided where I wanted to put the cursor I went on another, more refined, architectural characteristics on a few boats as it requires a lot more work.

As I am a mechanical engineer and I sailed and worked in the sailing industry all my life, data is my tool so I worked on it for almost 2 years.

Fortunately my job gave me the opportunity to sail on the best racing boats so I can put the numbers in perspective with real life results.

My choice went to Current Marine, who built the Arrow 1200 you put on video in an post yesterday.
With the boss Julian we co-designed a new boat, the CM50, a shorter version of the CM52 with the CM46 rig.