Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

[44'cruisingcat]

Buy it, sail it to Australia and sell it for a profit.

[smj]

Originally Posted by monte

When my parents were about your age they bought some land in a nice seaside town where they should have built a home that was modern and stylish by today's standards. They didn't, they built a home in the style they liked which, being 70ish, was pretty outdated but comfortable for them, unlike the more architectural examples in the neighbourhood. 10 years later they sold the home for a decent price, but not nearly as much as for what it would of sold for had they built a more contemporary design, the market wasn't there for an older style, comfortable home. Still they found a farmer who sold up his property and wanted to retire to the seaside.
You are in pretty much the same situation. There will be less of a market for a 50ft 23yr old cat in 10yrs time and the selling price will reflect that, as against purchasing a modern design newer cat. The reason it hasn't sold is because most sensible buyers with 500k to spend are looking at the bottom line when they make buying decisions. The bottom line is in favour of newer production cats, as it is do real estate, cars etc. thanks to innovative modern designs that attract the majority of the market.
I can't imagine asking for advice publicly on something I thought of as my dream boat,, I would be keeping it as quiet as possible for fear of someone snafflling it before I got my ass into gear to make an offer.
Seriously, make an offer, buy the boat if you want it. If you really need to fill something in your spreadsheet, take a look at similar size 23yr old well equipped cats, check the asking price difference and assume that's going to be the selling price in 10 years time. Put if in a spreadsheet and if you and your wife can't live with dropping 20 boat bucks a year then stick with your 40' mono that you feel safe with.

I'm sorry but to me the majority of the newer production cats are anything but innovative or modern. They use materials and build methods dating to years ago and to me the majority of the modern production cats aesthetically look like a badly designed slab sided condo. I would guess the LeRouge uses much more modern build materials and methods than the common production cat and aesthetically looks light years ahead. I personally think the modern production cats for the most part are a step back rather than forward, but then again these opinions are my own.

[Training Wheels]

What day will I die? What will the stock market be like in ten years? What is the meaning of life?


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[monte]

Originally Posted by smj

I'm sorry but to me the majority of the newer production cats are anything but innovative or modern. They use materials and build methods dating to years ago and to me the majority of the modern production cats aesthetically look like a badly designed slab sided condo. I would guess the LeRouge uses much more modern build materials and methods than the common production cat and aesthetically looks light years ahead. I personally think the modern production cats for the most part are a step back rather than forward, but then again these opinions are my own.

Yes that's what I was trying to convey. Outdated ideas of what yachts/houses/cars etc should look like. Eh they don't build em like they used to.

[contrail]

I do think that size matters, and by that I mean a boat is easily too big. A couple is essentially sailing singlehanded, in turns, and you don't want to have to have both people up for every maneuver.

It's so easy to think big, big, big, and more, more, more. I am 66, captain and teach on a 45 foot cat. I have singlehanded tens of thousands of miles and singlehand this boat. It's great, but I would be hesitant about adding one single foot to it.

And that is not counting finding places to dock and haul out.

Look at all the couples that have a ball on cats somewhere between 36 and 40 feet, like the older Leopard 38's and Lagoon 380's.

Cheers,
Tim

[tomfl]

TS You seem to have both asked addition questions and missed the point of my posts.

Lots of boats don't sell because the owner doesn't really want to sell and as you have noted the current owner is not really motivated to sell.

Your wife is right that if you buy the big cat you're most likely to lose money and you will probably not sell it right away. Any one claiming to know how much money you will lose or how long it will take to sell is blowing smoke, but a good guess is it will be a lot.

Your question about cruising on your current boat or getting the big cat to cruise on is one only you can answer. For me it is a no brainer. The noise and vibration on a motor boat gives me a headache and the stench from the exhaust makes me nauseous. I love the sensation of sailing. But I also realize others have a different take on sailing verses motoring.

This is one of the things you, and only you, can put your personal value on. Another thing to consider is just how long you will be able to cruise, and more to the point cruise on a sail boat which is normally more demanding than cruising on a motor boat.

Given what you have posted about loving your motor boat and how well it has served you my guess is you should forget about the cat and dance with what brung you.

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[colemj]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Given what you have posted about loving your motor boat and how well it has served you my guess is you should forget about the cat and dance with what brung you.

I'm not sure whether you are confused as to the OP's current boat, or taking a swipe at it?

Mark

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

What answer does this esteemed group of catamaran enthusiasts have to my wife's two tough question?

She is very concerned we will never be able to sell Adagio if we buy her and sail to Florida. She worries we will be stuck with the operating cost of a 51' x 28' catamaran forever.

Maybe another way to develop this line of reasoning. Separate this into two questions.

Will you be able to sell?

Probably yes. Three (at least) outcomes, but it's really a continuum. One is that you sell for $1; unlikely you'd have to do that, but it establishes the lower end of the continuum. Another is that you sell for more than you paid; equally unlikely but there's the upper end. Along that line somewhere in between, the boat will sell when the prices is "right" for both you and buyer. "Right" would likely be somewhere between $1 and your purchase price but still may be lower than what you would prefer. Not to worry; that leads leads to a different question focusing on what you can afford. (You can do that analysis.) No matter; yes, you can likely sell the boat.

Will you be stuck with operating costs forever?

Likely no. See above. And there's another option, too: give it away, and take the tax deduction. Not necessarily a good option, especially if the potential deduction doesn't really fit your tax situation. (Ditto your analysis.) But the chances of not being able to give the boat way are slim, so the chances of being stuck with operating costs are slim.

Another decision point could then arise in the area of whether a "right-ish" sale price is better than a tax deduction.

There are of course other possible outcomes slightly tangential to those two questions, some stemming from life, some stemming from boat ownership. You (or your wife, or you both) might crap out earlier than you intend. You might have a boating accident and sink the thing. And so forth. You know all that...

-Chris

[duefocena]

Have you sailed this boat ? All of our opinions won't be as telling. I am in my 60's and have had a 42' cat for ten years. Had a 52' in Hawaii prior to this. The difference in what the two cats required of me is huge. In my case bigger is not better. I would not be comfortable with the larger cat presently. I am yet to hear of good in sail drives. That said I don't think people compliment as often as complain. Being broken down somewhere is not my fondest memories and broken down waiting for obscure parts.....

[TacomaSailor]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Buy it, sail it to Australia and sell it for a profit.

That is exactly what my boat broker, buyers agent, is telling me. He is a very experienced catamaran guy and wants me to buy the boat cheap. He and I would then sail it to either Oz or the Med and sell for a huge profit.

An alternative I have considered is the Brooklyn Bridge (does that translate to Aussie talk?)

[duefocena]

Just curious, is the boat perchance in a brokers slip? Common here where larger slips are rare with a waiting list for end ties, a broker will take the listing and fill a large slip he would otherwise have to pay for knowing the boat is "over priced". Relieving himself of the monthly on a large slip and hoping the seller may come to reality can be a situation where a boat has been on the market too long.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Heath68

I think (FWIW) you have most of what you need to make a good choice:
= this boat does this

Sailing/exploring
- Florida Keys
- Bahamas
- Turks and Caicos
- Georgia and South Carolina
This boat will do that!

Reasons for wanting:
- My knees are shot and I want a flat stable platform
- My wife is a neat freak and insists on clothes washer and dryer
- I read & she watches TV so we need widely separated personal space
- My wife loves to cook and is very good at it so a big galley is essential
- My wife will never have a top loader refrigerator again. To even suggest one would be a just cause for divorce
- I still love to sail and want a boat with decent performance off the wind
- We know that most of our cruising/sailing is in areas with lighter winds
- We do a lot of bicycle riding and need to carry several in easy, dry storage
- I like working on boat stuff and need a good workshop
- I do a lot of computer stuff and need a dedicated computer desk
- We want a big outside living area with a big table
- We want room to have Air Conditioning
This Boat does all of the above!!

My wife refuses to consider a trawler. She really wants a catamaran with room to roam, wash clothes, and bake cookies. She wants to put up some sail, cruise along at 7-knots on a broad reach, and enjoy the view.

Here are our concerns:

ME (the Old Tired Sailor)
- Will the saildrives last and/or cost a fortune in the next 10-years - I think you answered that when you said you were over thinking it. Therefore
- Is the boat too much for me (OTS) to handle at sea - You say you're only travelling up to 70 miles per stint.. worst case scenario she uses the electric winch, lowers the sails, motors to next destination where you chill out, wrap the sails up for good and use it as a motor cruiser with her driving and you sipping beer -
- Is the hydraulic steering with no linkage between the rudders OK - Good enough me thinks but is the worry a dealbreaker?

WIFE
- How much will we lose when we sell the boat in 8 to 10 years - More than you'd like but all being well you'll not loose too much front end if you negotiate hard..
- How will I handle the boat if something happens to OTS - See "Is the boat too much for me?"

BOTH of US
- No visibility forward from the cockpit except from raised helm seat - Is this a dealbreaker? If so look elsewhere and stop dreaming!
- Limited availability of haulout facilities - Is THIS a dealbreaker? if so move on. I think probably not or you wouldn't be looking at this size in the first place.. Also (me thinks) as time goes on more and more places will accept bigger boats.. the trend is towards bigger!
- Sofa/Table in salon takes up too much room - Buy a new smaller table!
- Limited dockage options when we leave boat for extended periods - Limited and more costly but not impossible..
- There are a lot of production cats in the 45’+ range that fit our needs - but do they fit your DESIRES?

I’ve created a spreadsheet of catamarans for sale that meet these criteria:
- 40 to 55 feet with dedicated “owners” hull / cabin
- Fewer than 3,000 engine hours
- No more than 16 years old (year 1999 to current)
- Between $275,000 and $575,00

The catamaran must also have at least four of the following items installed:
- Watermaker
- Generator
- Air Conditioning
- Electric winches
- Spinnaker
- Gennaker

Personally I'd purchase Adagio in San Diego for the “right” price but be prepared to look at others if he doesn't play ball. Then..
Buy a bigger Anchor.. sail to Florida and the Bahamas.
Worry about your knees later.. enjoy life.. its your ambition and probably has been for many years.. why crock now?

IMO of course!
Great Thread tho and best of luck

Thats a good mix of analysis and wants. Nicely done.

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[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day TS,

I know squat about cats, so won't offer gratuitous advice about which one is best for you to buy. But I have been faced with a similar quandary relative to the monohull market that we were operating in when we bought Insatiable II.

All I can say is that the brutal fact is that you will never recoup your expenditures when you sell a boat that you have cruised in for a few years or more. Never. Meanwhile, you have spent several years of your diminishing supply of years to go, sailing (or not even sailing) in a boat that does not twang your heartstrings if you go the most traveled path.

When faced with a similar decision point a decade of so ago, we went with the unique, non-production, one-off work of art that we really wanted. We paid asking price, because we thought it was a fair representation of the value of the boat. No reference to the BUC value because it was unique. We've never felt that this was a mistake, for the boat has lived up to our expectations. We've never envied the folks who spent a similar amount of money for a somewhat larger, newer AWB, with more of the conventional bells and whistles. This is most likely our last big yacht. When the time comes to part with her, we hope to find someone who will appreciate her finer qualities to pass her on to. We may take a fiscal beating, we may not... but we will have had a lot of years enjoying a wonderful boat. How can one balance that quality of life against potential monetary loss?

In one sense, just buying a cruising boat is a fiscal joke. The proverbial hole in the water...
In another sense, if your desire to go sailing in a boat that makes you happy is strong, who cares what the F it costs you... if you can still put beans on the table and a jar of red to share with friends life is still good. None of us can make the decision for you, but at least I can say you can reap such huge benefits from following your heart that the costs, as long as not destructive to your lifestyle, just don't count for much.

I'm sure that the cruising beancounters will flame this attitude. I only know what has worked for me, and hope that our success in the world of special boats will give you some support in your thoughts.

Jim

We came to a similar conclusion. At some point you need to decide and commit. In Oz we call it 'sh#t or get off the pot'. (pot meaning toilet)

With the caveat that we got a good boat, well equipped for a reasonable price. This is where the analysis paid dividends. We knew what boats were potentials and what boats were off the list.

Then we waited till we found the good boat. We had it under contract 2 days after it listed on Yachtworld. 'If you snooze you lose'. (the good deals that is)

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[Red Sky]

Originally Posted by colemj

I'm not sure whether you are confused as to the OP's current boat, or taking a swipe at it?



Mark

I was thinking the same thing, I believe TC has included in this thread more than once that he has a 40', cutter rigged, mono.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Red Sky

I was thinking the same thing, I believe TC has included in this thread more than once that he has a 40', cutter rigged, mono.

Who is TC?


Now I'm even more confused...