Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

I'm confident you'll find the weight difference between the 1000XL and the new 1160 is less than a ton. .

Yes, in fact the late 1000XL2s in Australia as against the most recent 1160 Lite (with all weight saving initiatives) is probably only half a tonne.

[dgz3]

Just buy an Iroquois 30.

[KJThomas]

I sail a 32 foot cat coastal cruising.

Fine for a couple. Depends on your expectations of luxury.

I also have a couple of designs for small cats. Clamcat and Altair 360. Note. blatant self promotion.

I think a smaller cat is much more doable for a home builder. So many bite off more than they can chew.

36 foot would be my ideal size for both building and cruising.
How much junk do you want to carry around with you anyways?

Not economic for a production builder, but easier and faster for home building.

Also, every time you add an extra 5 feet you double the surface area, rig size, maintenance and marina costs. Under 36 foot makes the rig easy to handle, power requirements are small (9hp outboard or 5hp diesel) and you fit in a standard 10m berth.
Mine even goes in the small travelift.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

SNIP

I'm confident you'll find the weight difference between the 1000XL and the new 1160 is less than a ton. That isn't a lot of materials in the hull considering how much more gear and amenities it has.


SNIP

Just looked it up and the 1190 has a displacement of 15,400 pounds and the 1000XL2 has a displacement 0f 12,100 pounds. I know you posted about different Seawinds but the difference may be a little more than you claim.

In any case the cost of a boat is a lot more than just a hull. The 1190 has electric motors to lift the outboards which are 20hp compared to the 9.9 in the 1000. Larger sail area which I expect would mean larger winches and running and standing rigging. Also has improved rudders which I take to mean more expensive. There was also a more complex, and expensive, divider between the salon and the cockpit in the 1000XL compared to the original 1000. I suspect the electronics have also been upgraded as Seawind produced newer models.

Seawind is not alone in producing models that were larger and had more creature comforts, just look at the French boats that have gone in the direction of making floating condos; even as in some cases the sail area has been reduced.

Another consideration for me is what I will call the difference, at least in my mind, between a cruiser and a pocket cruiser. Before I bought my boat I looked at several Fboats. No question they are nice boats; easy to trailer, faster than most boats in the harbor, plenty of room for camping on a boat type cruising, lots of them in the market and better resale than many other boats. But there is no question a Seawind 1000 type (850, 1000, 1000XL, 1000XL2) boat is much more of a cruiser. I have gone over three months without needing to restock the boat with foot, water, or fuel.

Of course the newer, larger than 1000 Seawinds are even more capable cruisers but I am not sure they would be as easy to single hand as my Seawind. Another consideration for me was how seaworthy the boat was. While I adhere to the advice on a plaque on my Dad's old boat "O God, thy sea is so great and my boat is so small" there is no question in my mind that a Seawind 1000 is much more seaworthy than any of the other pocket cruisers I have seen.

I also looked at several other pocket cruisers like a Telstar, Stiletto, and some home build plywood boats. Bottom line for me was for a boat that did what I wanted a pocket cruiser simply did not measure up.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Duke95

Just surprised that they are not more popular than they are...otherwise one would assume Lagoon, FP and Leopard would be making them??

Both Lagoon and FP started with smaller designs a few decades back. The market and the average customer demand has evolved.
Just look at the FP Maldives.


But I think that most expect decent creature comfort from a cat (that is one of the selling points). For many this includes standing headroom throughout including the bridgedeck.

This leads to a boxy design with high windage and/or a low bridgedeck clearance in short cats. The FP Maldives has a roof that can e lifted at anchor to get to a good comrpomise.

To me the FP Mahe 36 is one of the shortest that combine good looks with good brigedeck clearance and acceptable windage. Maybe one can remove another foot or so but thats about it.

[Walaby]

I'm interested in buying a smaller size cat in Oz and would be interested if anyone on this forum has any experience with the Fastback 30 / 32 designed by John Goss I believe. Not that many of them around but they come up occasionally from about $80k here. Solid glass and an older design (80's - 90's)so probably pretty heavy and I'm not sure how well they sail? They come with an outboard or a retractable leg from what I've seen. Any info?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Walaby

I'm interested in buying a smaller size cat in Oz and would be interested if anyone on this forum has any experience with the Fastback 30 / 32 designed by John Goss I believe. Not that many of them around but they come up occasionally from about $80k here. Solid glass and an older design (80's - 90's)so probably pretty heavy and I'm not sure how well they sail? They come with an outboard or a retractable leg from what I've seen. Any info?

Decent solid boats, although a bit heavy and sailing performance is not sparkling. For around the same money there are GBE sportsdecks on the market which sail better.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Walaby

I'm interested in buying a smaller size cat in Oz and would be interested if anyone on this forum has any experience with the Fastback 30 / 32 designed by John Goss I believe. Not that many of them around but they come up occasionally from about $80k here. Solid glass and an older design (80's - 90's)so probably pretty heavy and I'm not sure how well they sail? They come with an outboard or a retractable leg from what I've seen. Any info?

Walaby, Fastback catamarans have a very informative Facebook page that can be viewed without signing up. Google is your friend.

The Fastback30/32 are a great little boat, solidly built with great camaraderie between owners and builder/designer.
They sail much better than similar sized Aus production boats

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Walaby, Fastback catamarans have a very informative Facebook page that can be viewed without signing up. Google is your friend.

The Fastback30/32 are a great little boat, solidly built with great camaraderie between owners and builder/designer.
They sail much better than similar sized Aus production boats

If by that you mean SW1000xl etc, you are simply wrong. And the GBE, an Australian production boat is way quicker. BTW I see you have no longer your SW 24. What do you sail now?

[KJThomas]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Walaby, Fastback catamarans have a very informative Facebook page that can be viewed without signing up. Google is your friend.

The Fastback30/32 are a great little boat, solidly built with great camaraderie between owners and builder/designer.
They sail much better than similar sized Aus production boats

I expect fastbacks, being the same generation as the Gulf Tiger, GBE etc. would be reasonable sailors. Especially as the accommodation is cleverly integrated without too much windage.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Walaby, Fastback catamarans have a very informative Facebook page that can be viewed without signing up. Google is your friend.

The Fastback30/32 are a great little boat, solidly built with great camaraderie between owners and builder/designer.
They sail much better than similar sized Aus production boats

With a roller furling main sail it is hard for me to understand how it would sail better than similar sized Seawinds with a loose footed main, especially a Seawind with extended sugar scoops.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by tomfl

With a roller furling main sail it is hard for me to understand how it would sail better than similar sized Seawinds with a loose footed main, especially a Seawind with extended sugar scoops.

Tom, what are you taking about?

Time for you and your mates to take the tinfoil hats off.

There was no mention of a Seawind , or even one with sugar scoops in my post.

As for Roller furling mainsails, are you confusing this with another thread?





However if you want to start comparing design aspects ,the Fastback had a single dager board and nifty flip up rudders.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by smo

I wonder if a small 30-34 power catamaran might be a marketable option.
Something simple and light with bare minimum power for maximum 12 knots on flat water.
Galley and head in one hull on other hull accomodations for access to a king sized berth between the hulls. cabin above would have minimal inside steering station and a big u shaped dinette.
Flat roof for kayak storage and sunbathing.
I think the secret would be to perfect the power plants to 12 knots max props tuned for efficiency. For a couple to cruise the waterways. Minimize nav to compass speedo autopilot, gps and depth sounder. Set up cabin with lots of opening windows and low power fans
Outdoor shower spray on stern.
I spend a lot of time on the water and see a number of cats but rarely see any actually sailing.

PDQ used to make a 34' power cat.

[valhalla360]

I think it's the market. From the late 1990's thru 2008. They sold whatever they built. Bigger boats sold for much higher prices and margins, so you saw a migration to companies building ever larger boats at it maximized profits.

With the downturn, new model launches slowed down, particularly in the lower price categories as these are luxury items for most, so no new small boats coming out (yes there are a few small volume exceptions).

Another thing to consider... Larger hulls as someone pointed out don't cost a lot more if you are starting at the design stage. The fridge, water system, head, etc... (the off the shelf parts), don't change a lot going from a 35 to 38' boat, so that smaller boat has to shoulder a relatively higher cost per foot and buyers have been trained to buy boats by the foot. In addition, those bigger boats, don't have to shoehorn in all the systems which makes design and construction easier.

[barnakiel]

Edel tried to revive their older concept with new small cats and it did not work all that well for them.

gamme

I think a great concept but maybe geographically misplaced. Or possibly poor marketing skills/budget.

I do not see any flaws in the concept. They look like a good option for many sailors. And yet, they did not mean to sell well (contrary to the older Edels that sold very well and are still much in use today).

Cheers,
b.