Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

[hurricanehole]

Why little popularity going small is a good question. To me, the skipper of a 34' Snowgoose the Heavenly Twins looks like a pocket cruiser while I look like a pocket cruiser to almost all cats I've seen in the Bahamas. But why go small. For the 90% of us without a large retirement fund that's the only way to go. Small means majorly less upkeep and initial cost. There's a Woods homebuilt cat poster on the forum, yes, why aren't boats like that more popular? The idea that it costs almost as much to build a big one as a small one doesn't make sense to me. The world is full of manufactured items of different sizes, costs and quality. Monohulls and cars being an example.

[Bulawayo]

I would have to agree with the logic. Peter Dean used to make a 26ft cat that I seen as far afield as Mauritius. The Woods cats have been seen all over the world as have the Prouts, Catalacs and HT's etc. Lagoon and FP used to produce smaller models as well.
However, I dont think its the cost of production that has hit these craft - I believe its the profits - simply they are smaller. Manufacturers make bigger profits out of bigger boats so its likely a commercial decision. Peter Deans little 26ft was succesful but after a few hulls he simply moved over to bigger cats. From memory some have twin 10hp inboard Yanmar diesels as well (but not all). Not withstanding, there are still a fair number of used cats in the 26-33ft bracket on the market.
We originally commenced full time cruising on an Island Spirit 35ft, possibly not a pocket boat at that size, and that boat had significant carrying capacity - exceeding our requirements comfortably, so that was not a factor - we also had enough volume. We moved up in size as we could afford to do so and also preferred the aesethetics and performance of our subsequent cats.

Originally Posted by hurricanehole

Why little popularity going small is a good question. To me, the skipper of a 34' Snowgoose the Heavenly Twins looks like a pocket cruiser while I look like a pocket cruiser to almost all cats I've seen in the Bahamas. But why go small. For the 90% of us without a large retirement fund that's the only way to go. Small means majorly less upkeep and initial cost. There's a Woods homebuilt cat poster on the forum, yes, why aren't boats like that more popular? The idea that it costs almost as much to build a big one as a small one doesn't make sense to me. The world is full of manufactured items of different sizes, costs and quality. Monohulls and cars being an example.

[boatman61]

Another factor I reckon is the size of people today.. in the 70's when entering a pub or disco my 6'2" allowed me a pretty good view of everyone in there.. in the 90's and onwards I discovered I'm average height and at 140 odd pounds a light weight.. most are touching 200 and over.
Pocket cats like the HT's etc are just to small for todays market..

[weavis]

I would say in todays market, a 'pocket cruiser' Cat that stands a chance of succeeding on many levels would be 29 foot in length, with 32 foot being a better deal. There is no price differential in real terms (manufacture) between a 26/7 footer and a 32 footer... or rather the cost is minimal.

Who is going to spend 250K plus on a 29 footer and perhaps a design they are not keen on?

Even if someone just produced a hull and superstructure and left the fitting to the customer, the end result would be a lot of money.

I think a 30 footer made in Ply and fitted out could be done for 70K.... but who would buy?

[Bulawayo]

You could be right - Im 6'6" and 260lbs (and not overweight) and I battled to find a boat big enough to stand up in or to find a useable heads. I also can struggle around motors.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Another factor I reckon is the size of people today.. in the 70's when entering a pub or disco my 6'2" allowed me a pretty good view of everyone in there.. in the 90's and onwards I discovered I'm average height and at 140 odd pounds a light weight.. most are touching 200 and over.
Pocket cats like the HT's etc are just to small for todays market..

[Goosebumps]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Another factor I reckon is the size of people today.. in the 70's when entering a pub or disco my 6'2" allowed me a pretty good view of everyone in there.. in the 90's and onwards I discovered I'm average height and at 140 odd pounds a light weight.. most are touching 200 and over.
Pocket cats like the HT's etc are just to small for todays market..

Good point mind you I am 6 foot 4 and 110kg and only in my Catalac 10 m did I find enough head space all over inside, mine was launched in 1987.

[Bobcat]

Still very popular - take a peek!

Bill O'Brien catamaran designs:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/19959666274/

[Bobcat]

Despite the age of many, Bill's pocket cruiser cats are still very popular! Many of Bill O'Brien's designs are happily cruising including many of the first of each design until recently. One of his 'Oceanics' was the first around Cape Horn, another made an early transatlantic passage.

Bill O'Brien RIP

"Born in Dublin in 1920, his family then moved to a farm in the Irish town of Carlow in 1926. He spent happy years as a lad testing model boats in a stream on the old farm at Monavothe, Rathvilly. A family joke is that his first catamaran comprised two wooden pig troughs battened together for paddling on the pond. Finding that one alone was too tippy, fixing another alongside seemed right – even at the age of 10.

Bill left Ireland, joined the Royal Air Force, and was posted to the 202 Group Western Desert. He was stationed in Abukir, Egypt where he served as a rear gunner in the Second World War. In Alexandria, he met Louise, a beautiful half-French half-Italian girl; they courted, under the very watchful eye of Louise’s mother who was very soon under the spell of this gentle man with the soft Irish brogue. Bill (very wisely) quickly learned to speak French and Italian. Bill and Louise were married on September 11, 1943 and lived with Louise’s mother in Port Taufiq 20 yards from the lukewarm sea where he used his free time, and the ideal facilities, to test out his various sailing ideas.

For a short time back in the UK, Bill spent some time on Sunderland and Catalina flying boats, in 1946 at Lough Erne, Northern Ireland and experimented with a couple of Sunderland floats as a catamaran. The concave shaped floats, designed for high speed, were poor performers at slow speed under sail; however, he discovered that a wooden version with a deeper vee forward and some rocket to keel changing to flattish sections aft proved a better compromise for light airs or strong winds. An idea was born.

In 1950 Bill, Louise and their two daughters, Mary-Rose and Liliane, both born in Alexandria, came to the UK and settled in Weston, Southampton. At Weston Bill met Ivan Morris, his brother Franz, Don Harvey, Bert Drought, Phil and Harry Cozens, Leo Line (designer of the Weston Sharpie), Luke Wilkinson, Ken Wyeth, George Gray and Harry Critchley. They formed Weston Sailing Club at the Seaweed hut on Weston Shore in January 1952 adopting Leo’s Weston Sharpie as a Club racing class – two already built, a number of them set to building others in back gardens.

Bill, now a civilian and having to earn a living worked as an airframe fitter at Air Service Training, Hamble (a branch of the Hawker Siddely Group during 1950-1951; Airframe Engineer/Inspector on flying boats at Aquila Airways 1952-1953 and then back to AST again as an Airframe Inspector.

In 1953 the younger members of the Weston Sailing Club wanted a lighter, faster racing dinghy with built-in buoyancy for righting by the crew. The Committee decided on a design competition, designs to be built at the owners’ cost and thoroughly tested before approval. Bill designed and built the Daring and in the Southampton Water Sailing association event in the spring of 1954 (six clubs entered five boats each), having started late, overhauled the other 29 boats, including an 18’ National and a 24’ International. Daring was approved by the Club Committee. Bill later received a request for an “amateur build” competitor and produced the Challenge, a number were built (not professionally) and reports were that she could easily outplane the 505. Local Weston Sailing Club builders of Challenge were Knobby Clarke, Andy Osman, the Morris twins and Ivor Drought.

In the early 50’s Bill still had the catamaran bug and he designed a 14’ catamaran for Denis Roe, a tea planter in Ceylon, as it was then, in 1954 and suggested that the plans could be used by others there to form a separate class for racing.

An opening came in August 1955 when Ken Pearce of Essex won the Fastest Boat Prize at Cowes with his 18ft catamaran, Endeavour, the average speed of which was 14 knots over the nautical mile, although she was recorded on radar at 22 knots in the spurts. Bill spurred on by the favourable reaction at Weston Sailing Club for multi-hulls tidied up his 1946 design, calling it Jumpahead. Bill then with others formed the Springbok Restricted Class Association for catamarans in November 1955 and wrote to Roland Prout and many others asking them to join in with similar sizes to meet the restrictions. Bill made a scale model of Jumpahead and exhibited it on the Captain Watts stand at the 1956 London Boat Show. The Prout brothers also exhibited one hull of their Shearwater on their folding dinghy stand. Both aroused interest, backed largely by the resultant publicity of the Ken Pearce Endeavour success at Cowes. Thus, the Jumpahead and Shearwater catamarans emerged on the sailing scene.

The management of Hawker Siddely, mainly due to the slowing down of the aircraft industry in the area, was looking to diversify and decided to start up a boat section. Bill headed up the boat section designing his first motor/sailer cruiser – The Shamrock which was successfully received in the sailing world and was featured at the London Boat Shows. Hawker Siddely moved the Catamaran Division to Anglesey in North Wales in 1960 and, although Bill had been offered a position as designer, his preference was for Southampton and the Solent area.

In 1960 Bill decided to set up his own company, Bill O’Brien Ltd. The Shamrock paved the way for the BobCat and the 26ft Channel Rover. A few years later Bill parted company with partners in Bill O’Brien Ltd. and decided to go “on his own” and Bill O’Brien Catamarans was established within Willments Shipyard in Woolston. Bill then designed the 30 ft Oceanic. Over the next 25 years 80 Oceanics’ were built, many of which are located in seas and/or marinas all over the world. One of his famous one off designs was The Anneliese a 70ft catamaran designed for Rosie and Colin Swayle who sailed around Cape Horn (Rosie wrote a book on their experiences - Children of Cape Horn).

Bill left his mark in the Southampton area, firstly with Weston Sailing Club, which later moved to Netley, his boat designing and building companies, and his participation with Norman Kemish and Arthur Gale for his participation in the planning of the inaugural Southampton Boat Show in 1969.

Bill and Louise were happily married for 62 years, his beloved Louise passed away in August 2005. Once Bill retired fully, they enjoyed taking trips to Weston Shore, looking out to sea and reminiscing about those first days of the sailing club. Louise, along with the other wives (one of the regulars was Phil Harvey) and their daughters, used to help in “the hut” making copious pots of tea and huge piles of sandwiches for the hungry sailors returning from participating in yet another race. Bill and Louise felt very much at peace and comfortable by the sea – Louise because she had been born and raised near the sea, and Bill because it was his passion – not many people are lucky enough to spend most of their life having their hobby as their career. He just loved messing about with boats, and although he did eventually retire he never really stopped playing with boat designs and kept in touch with everyone who contacted him with requests and for advice.

Bill’s other love was music – he was a very accomplished accordion player and in his younger days used to entertain many people in the clubs and pubs around the Southampton area. He was still playing the accordion at the age of 88 and spent many hours recording his music and sending the tapes to his family and friends around the world!

Bill loved to read, particular favourites were western stories – Louis Lamour and Zane Gray. The Woolston library had quite a challenge keeping stocks for him. He also loved to tell stories (or yarns as he called them) about his days as a youngster and his time in the RAF. These stories kept his children and later his grandchildren quite enthralled, to them he seemed to have had a very exciting and colourful life. Now his grandchildren enjoy his various hobbies, one grandson has a love of the countryside and gardening, in particular growing vegetables; another is musically gifted; the third has an interest in electronics and engineering; and his granddaughter is carrying on his love of sailing, which she recently took up and participated in the Fastnet in 2009.

Bill left this world on June 28, 2009. It was of great comfort to his family that many people from the sailing community of Southampton attended the funeral and a splendid tribute to him was published in the Southern Echo.

There is no other charity that would be fitting as a remembrance of this wonderful man. He was a key figure in the sailing scene in Southampton when it was really taking off.

Bill was a member of the RNLI and he and Louise attended many of the fund raising functions organized in Southampton.

Bill O’Brien's Catamaran Designs
https://www.facebook.com/groups/19959666274/

[tkeithlu]

In the mid sixties I was on a 40' monohull sloop on the south coast of Brittany. We had been through a storm and were beat. We met a 26' cat crewed by a retired RN Captain and his wife from Jersey. The boat had belonged to Gilbey of gin fame. They had been through the same storm. They had far more space, and a far lighter rig, than we did. We had beat up a young crew of four; they were an older two. If I wanted a sailboat now, and could keep it out of storms that could flip it, I'd really like to have that little cat.

[Bobcat]

Not many flipped - I only heard of one of the older pocket cruisers and that was in exceptional circumstances off Hamburg in the North Sea as far as I remember many years ago. Modern high performance racing cats are a different species altogether! Unlike monohulls, cats don't usually sink if they do capsize which is a bonus.

[ddugger]

Just a comment on costs: Boats, not unlike houses are often perceived as being surface horizontal cost based. In reality, the best cost unit for both houses and boats are internal volume based. Equally, you should under stand as the size increases and the volume increase - the costs don't increase proportionately. Simply put - open space does not ads to the cost of a house or a boat - even though the structural element to provide it will, but still not proportionately within structural material limit ranges. However, dividing walls/bulkheads, furnishings, fixtures, plumbing and wiring, ect. and their cost to volume ratios all increase/unit volume as the boat or the house becomes smaller. Consequently, comparing volume to cost ratios can provide a good basic yardstick to measure a boats design and implementation efficiency - but of course not its sailing efficiency.

[Kazamaran]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

Vinyl ester resin can be had in 500lb drums for about 2-2.5g at unit purchase prices. Vacuum bagging liners don't dramatically increase cost because you need more coverage. If we keep using Seawind as example (since factor is available as the expert) - I'm confident you'll find the weight difference between the 1000XL and the new 1160 is less than a ton. That isn't a lot of materials in the hull considering how much more gear and amenities it has.

We're not saying bigger doesn't cost more, but the cost curve isn't linear. For example, the most labor intensive part of laying starts at the bow, keel, bulkhead junctions (basically anywhere you look where there's significant three dimension junction). A flatter wider larger beam won't be more labor intensive than its smaller cousin. I don't think it's hard to see that geometrically, usable volume increases more rapidly than surface area.

The reason why larger boats cost more? Profit margins. In manufacturing, whether boats, cars or pickups - you'll find that smaller boats and compact cars have slim margins, even after you load the boat with features. As the cost of labor goes up, the harder it'll be to justify offering a smaller cruiser that cost about as much as a larger one.

Finally........a lucid perspective 👏🏼 all boils down to added value and margin. You can build a short little fat guy and add all kinds of stuff but when done and said, it's not really a sailing boat. It's a parking boat. Performance, space and lots of load........has to be a longer and wider frame; displacement.

[Adam T]

There are 10 meters / 33 ft. cats like awentura or ladyhowk on the market...

Recently we had long discussions here in Libertist whether to start 10 meter cat project. Seaworthy fast good looking cruiser.

The problem is those days clients want wedding cake like caravans not sailing yachts...

[Piscis]

That Aventura 34 looks really nice... Succeeding the 33.

https://www.aventura-catamarans.com/

Looks like they are trying to fill a gap between the popular 40++ Cats from Lagoon, FP... and the Gemini´s.

Same on the C-Cat 37 from COMAR:

https://www.c-catamarans.com/37-2/

All well priced below their bigger counterparts from the "Big 5". However, still a bit too high priced to be considered as a "pocket cruiser".

In any way, some Cat´s worth of considering looking at, if someone wants to buy new, for personal use and not want to put the boat in charter, rather sailing it by yourself.

Would love to hear some first hands experience from people owning an Aventura or a C-Cat...

Thanks!

John