Why so many Lagoons on the market?

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

So half way across they are neck and neck at 6.1 knots, except the L400 decides to call in to Barbados 70 miles from the finish line before proceeding to St Lucia. So you are right unless all facts are known hard to compare apples with apples.


You can view these two by picking them as favorites in the 2017 ARC tracker and following their path daily - most of the time no real difference.
https://yb.tl/arc2017#

-x486-

"Under 7 knots we wallow along pathetically; 7-11 knots we feel slow but that we're progressing; 11-15 we're doing nicely; 15-21 we're quick; over 22 knots we're the fast and furious."


Hard to draw any conclusions being the only 1160 ever to do an ARC? Although this shows the performance difference is certainly not day and night. EDIT: I thought victory cat was seawind 1000 but apparently it's a 1160 as well. They also went at a leisurely pace....

The TS42 must be getting bored of winning the ARC by now.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

So half way across they are neck and neck at 6.1 knots, except the L400 decides to call in to Barbados 70 miles from the finish line before proceeding to St Lucia. So you are right unless all facts are known hard to compare apples with apples.


You can view these two by picking them as favorites in the 2017 ARC tracker and following their path daily - most of the time no real difference.
https://yb.tl/arc2017#

So the L400 never finished the race?

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by smj

So the L400 never finished the race?

They stopped at Barbados overnight before finishing at st Lucia, which accounts for longer total elapsed time.

You can't deny they were pretty much neck and neck the whole way. The other seawind 1160 victory cat was slower than both of them to cape verdes, stopped there then finished last.

And I really prefer the seawind over lagoon. But the evidence is that it doesn't perform significantly or at all better than a lagoon 400s2 on a crossing.

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by smj

So the L400 never finished the race?

Yes they finished after spending the day in Barbados, they arrived in Barbados on 11 Dec at 22:00 (UTC) and departed 12Dec 20 hrs later and sailed to the finish in St Lucia at 94 miles north and were then recorded as finished. That is the reason the SW is recorded as finished a day before them.


Victory Cat finished out of time, their steering gear failed I think.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

hahaha, lagoons not rigid. Can you provide some evidence ?

Here is evidence that performance cruising cats are not very fast when one needs to cross ocean - because load carrying ability is inadequate. They arfe ideal coastal cruisers though.

The evidence also shows Lagoons among others are basically motor sailers. Taking the same data and sorting by engine hours the results look very damning with the first Lagoon home clocking up 55!! eng hours. I am amazed at how many engine hours are used in this "race".

[smj]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Yes, the sea miles may have been different, but if you really want to get a feel of how the two boats in question performed read their blogs, the Lagoon had twice as many people aboard and it stopped in the Cape Verde islands and Barbados en route as well as having their code 0 bust on the first night. The SW blog complains of poor factory fittings speeds of 3 - 4 knots, constant worry about fuel and water, I'll let the reader decide what boat they would rather be on for that particular rally.


X86 - Dances with Waves


https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/ev...id=82&rtid=12#

Yep, big complaint about the poor factory fittings. Here’s the actual quote.

“No significant issues with the good ship thus far. Minor things:

Strip light fell down in the kitchen - factory glued! - drilled and screwed it in place properly.
Salt water shower in cockpit broke - cheap crappy rose - had a different one in the spares kit - replaced
One of the cooker knobs became seized - greased, and worked it back to life”

[smj]

Originally Posted by Yihang

-x486-

"Under 7 knots we wallow along pathetically; 7-11 knots we feel slow but that we're progressing; 11-15 we're doing nicely; 15-21 we're quick; over 22 knots we're the fast and furious."


Hard to draw any conclusions being the only 1160 ever to do an ARC? Although this shows the performance difference is certainly not day and night. EDIT: I thought victory cat was seawind 1000 but apparently it's a 1160 as well. They also went at a leisurely pace....

The TS42 must be getting bored of winning the ARC by now.

You left out the part about of double reefed main and wing on wing when discussing these sailing speeds. Also note this is true wind and not apparent. Here, let me help you out with the full quote.

“With the wind mostly on the tail, we've spent the last two days with the wing on wing sail up, and main with two reefs. The main shades the wing on wing, hence its reduction. Real wind (opposed to 'apparent'): Under 7 knots we wallow along pathetically; 7-11 knots we feel slow but that we're progressing; 11-15 we're doing nicely; 15-21 we're quick; over 22 knots we're the fast and furious.”

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

The evidence also shows Lagoons among others are basically motor sailers. Taking the same data and sorting by engine hours the results look very damning with the first Lagoon home clocking up 55!! eng hours. I am amazed at how many engine hours are used in this "race".

The TS 42 clocked up 33 hrs, is that a motor sailor too?

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by smj

Yep, big complaint about the poor factory fittings. Here’s the actual quote.

“No significant issues with the good ship thus far. Minor things:

Strip light fell down in the kitchen - factory glued! - drilled and screwed it in place properly.
Salt water shower in cockpit broke - cheap crappy rose - had a different one in the spares kit - replaced
One of the cooker knobs became seized - greased, and worked it back to life”

Sorry the big breakage was on the other Seawind 1160, busted steering.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by smj

You left out the part about of double reefed main and wing on wing when discussing these sailing speeds. Also note this is true wind and not apparent. Here, let me help you out with the full quote.

“With the wind mostly on the tail, we've spent the last two days with the wing on wing sail up, and main with two reefs. The main shades the wing on wing, hence its reduction. Real wind (opposed to 'apparent'): Under 7 knots we wallow along pathetically; 7-11 knots we feel slow but that we're progressing; 11-15 we're doing nicely; 15-21 we're quick; over 22 knots we're the fast and furious.”

Friendly fire. I don't like Lagoons at all. Will probably eventually get a 1160. But The defensiveness of some people when it comes to seawind performance is ridiculous.

Andrew Grace of Sailing Catamaran Diving Adventures on youtube has a video of him and richard ward Sailing a 1160 lite from Vietnam to singapore and they also use the goosewing configuration no main. They were doing 7 knots, so probably down to the boat being lighter since it's a short crossing.

Seawinds are great, foam core, glassed in furniture and bulkheads. Faster than a lagoon in light winds with appropriate sails and not over loaded. But I can accept they will not outperform a lagoon when loaded for a long crossing and sailing conservatively. Lets just leave it at that?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

The TS 42 clocked up 33 hrs, is that a motor sailor too?

Just goes to show the ARC is not a proper race. It does show that the condormarans relied most heavily on their iron sails.

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Just goes to show the ARC is not a proper race. It does show that the condormarans relied most heavily on their iron sails.

Have a look at the hours on the monohulls, many of them over 50 hrs - they must be motor sailors too, like the Swann 66.
https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...n%20161217.pdf



No one ever said it was a proper race. It is a rally. This is a cruisers forum not a racers forum, the data supports what a cruiser would do to cross the Atlantic and when there is very light wind people fire up their engines.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Have a look at the hours on the monohulls, many of them over 50 hrs - they must be motor sailors too, like the Swann 66.
https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...n%20161217.pdf



No one ever said it was a proper race. It is a rally. This is a cruisers forum not a racers forum, the data supports what a cruiser would do to cross the Atlantic and when there is very light wind people fire up their engines.

My point exactly the ARC is not a race and any performance comparisons derived from it must be taken with a grain of salt. People keep citing the ARC as a go to reference of sailing performance, as you say it is not, it is a rally.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Friendly fire. I don't like Lagoons at all. Will probably eventually get a 1160. But The defensiveness of some people when it comes to seawind performance is ridiculous.

Andrew Grace of Sailing Catamaran Diving Adventures on youtube has a video of him and richard ward Sailing a 1160 lite from Vietnam to singapore and they also use the goosewing configuration no main. They were doing 7 knots, so probably down to the boat being lighter since it's a short crossing.

Seawinds are great, foam core, glassed in furniture and bulkheads. Faster than a lagoon in light winds with appropriate sails and not over loaded. But I can accept they will not outperform a lagoon when loaded for a long crossing and sailing conservatively. Lets just leave it at that?

We’ve owned 2 Seawind 1000’s, both fully loaded for cruising and I can’t remember any Lagoons passing us. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t and doesn’t mean the Lagoon isn’t a great boat for what it was intended to do.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Ahh, the ARC is a rally, not a race, though some perceive it to be a race.

Sorry to contradict you Uncle Bob but where you have two or more sailboats heading in the same direction, you have a race. :-) But you are correct.