Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

[monte]

Trad I think it's a great idea, except maybe the chartering bit which will eat a fair chunk of boat$, but that's just me. Doing with 2 friends is a much better option for some than doing as a couple. No hassles with finding crew for longer passages and like you said, you will be individually spending time apart along the way as well. Having another couple on board not only halves the boat costs, but also allows for independent land travels which can sometimes be prohibitive as a couple (where to leave the boat, marina costs etc) I love cruising as a couple, but I'd also love cruising with best friends equally as competent at sailing and sharing. In lue of chartering I'd prefer join a yacht club, sail as much as possible on anything and everything, get to know some cat owners in your area as well.
Cheers

[Yong SC]

Hey, tradrockrat: Don't worry about opinions in forums. Just have fun.

[barnakiel]

40 to 44 may be fine.

b.

[Stu Jackson]

Good observations about checking out owners forums. In many cases, I believe the value of a boat is enhanced by a strong owners forum or group or association. In our case, I have been fortunate that I bought our then 12 year old one owner boat in 1998 when the internet was just getting started. The vast amount of information availabe, both specific to our boats and also generally boating specific (i.e., electrical systems, plumbing, etc. are not boat specific in most cases), has been invaluable to all owners of our boats and many others of the same type. I have given back a lot to that site and other boating forums, many times with links to information I have contributed and/or from other's contributions.

Want to learn about boat systems? Google Maine Sail.

Of course, there are always naysayers, who claim: "Hell, if you have all those posts there must be something seriously wrong with that boat."

Wrong.

It simply means a few things:

--- People like the boat and the information on the website and have very often mentioned it was part of their choice in buying this boat

--- New owners ask the same old questions, but can be directed to where the answers lie (some folks complain we have TOO much information - go figure; beats the alternative)

--- Options for choices are readily available

--- You don't have to reinvent the wheel

By all means, follow with the research on owners groups and read a lot. They are, as mentioned, the best source of information you'll get.

Good luck, happy planning.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Good observations about checking out owners forums. In many cases, I believe the value of a boat is enhanced by a strong owners forum or group or association. In our case, I have been fortunate that I bought our then 12 year old one owner boat in 1998 when the internet was just getting started. The vast amount of information availabe, both specific to our boats and also generally boating specific (i.e., electrical systems, plumbing, etc. are not boat specific in most cases), has been invaluable to all owners of our boats and many others of the same type. I have given back a lot to that site and other boating forums, many times with links to information I have contributed and/or from other's contributions.

Want to learn about boat systems? Google Maine Sail.

Of course, there are always naysayers, who claim: "Hell, if you have all those posts there must be something seriously wrong with that boat."

Wrong.

It simply means a few things:

--- People like the boat and the information on the website and have very often mentioned it was part of their choice in buying this boat

--- New owners ask the same old questions, but can be directed to where the answers lie (some folks complain we have TOO much information - go figure; beats the alternative)

--- Options for choices are readily available

--- You don't have to reinvent the wheel

By all means, follow with the research on owners groups and read a lot. They are, as mentioned, the best source of information you'll get.

Good luck, happy planning.

I agree, a strong owner's group is an excellent support network and a valuable asset to any owner. On one of the ones I joined, I was delighted to see that people were sharing phone numbers for sail shops, factory support, OE hardware suppliers and a ton of info on generic upgrades including batteries, rigging, fuel tanks, etc.

This indicated to me that a lot of the work that folks were doing to their boats weren't in the form of any sort of repairs to defects, but normal wear and tear after 10 or 20 yrs, upgrades as new technology hit the market and a lot of very useful tips and tricks on generic boat issues, something that everyone with a sailboat must deal with. I'm getting the impression that it's a well built brand with excellent customer support.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

We have had that very conversation. We do lots of traveling and vacationing together

When you vacation together, do you all share one room/suite?

Its easy to get along when everything is all peaches and cream. But its very different when the waves are high, the weather is cold and wet, or you are so very tired from standing watches. Who unclogs the head? Who cleans up the barf?

In your scenario who is the "captain"? Who makes the decisions like where to go, when is it time to reef, or even anchor out vs get a dock ?

And which couple gets the "owners cabin"?

Do you split all costs down the middle? What if you hit a rock/dock/boat, lots of damage, and it definitely one person's "fault"?

[tradrockrat]

Originally Posted by monte

Trad I think it's a great idea, except maybe the chartering bit which will eat a fair chunk of boat$, but that's just me. Doing with 2 friends is a much better option for some than doing as a couple. No hassles with finding crew for longer passages and like you said, you will be individually spending time apart along the way as well. Having another couple on board not only halves the boat costs, but also allows for independent land travels which can sometimes be prohibitive as a couple (where to leave the boat, marina costs etc) I love cruising as a couple, but I'd also love cruising with best friends equally as competent at sailing and sharing. In lue of chartering I'd prefer join a yacht club, sail as much as possible on anything and everything, get to know some cat owners in your area as well.
Cheers

Thanks for the response! A yacht club is something I hadn't thought of before.

[tradrockrat]

Originally Posted by hamburking

When you vacation together, do you all share one room/suite?

Its easy to get along when everything is all peaches and cream. But its very different when the waves are high, the weather is cold and wet, or you are so very tired from standing watches. Who unclogs the head? Who cleans up the barf?

In your scenario who is the "captain"? Who makes the decisions like where to go, when is it time to reef, or even anchor out vs get a dock ?

And which couple gets the "owners cabin"?

Do you split all costs down the middle? What if you hit a rock/dock/boat, lots of damage, and it definitely one person's "fault"?

All good questions, but I would turn it on you and ask, how do you deal with those very things? Are you a single sailor so it's not an issue? Do you sail as a couple? If so, I would think the answers to most of the questions are very similar. It's definitely a situation that requires honesty, forethought, open discussions and "worst case scenario" planning, but we're doing all that now. Thanks for the response!

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

All good questions, but I would turn it on you and ask, how do you deal with those very things? Are you a single sailor so it's not an issue? Do you sail as a couple? If so, I would think the answers to most of the questions are very similar. It's definitely a situation that requires honesty, forethought, open discussions and "worst case scenario" planning, but we're doing all that now. Thanks for the response!

Sneaky retort...turning it back to me...ok, I'll bite.

On my boat I am captain. I accept responsibility for everything aboard, and the safety of everyone aboard. Me. Even if I'm asleep, its me. If someone else is at the helm...its still me. Any damage or liability....me, I pay, my fault, my responsibility.

And with that responsibility comes the authority to decide where we go, when to reef, when to run for cover, when to take in sail, when to motor, and where we go.

For centuries, thats how its been. The boat has one captain. His word is law. Its a system that works.

Sorry, but sailing is not, cannot be a democracy.

I understand your point about forming a legal corportation, documents, etc. Sorry, but sounds like a waste of time and money to me. First storm, none of that matters one iota.

You are 5 years away from the boat purchase.
Get on a boat. Go sailing. Don't take my word for it.

[Yong SC]

Yep. Agree on the role and responsibilities of the captain. I practise the same.

As to other 'non-sailing' roles, I assign the team to 'housekeeping' , 'chef' etc; and have a rotating roster. This is accompanied by a simple checklist of each role so everyone knows what is expected of him.

The setting up of a corporation and ironing out all conditions of a joint ownership etc sounds like a 'pre-nuptial agreement' which fundamentally destroys the original intent to come together.

That being said, it will be good to get the boat insured for own damages on top of 3rd party liability to cover unexpected major costs. On top of sharing the obvious costs of food, provisionings, and fuel, it is good to have everyone chip in to a piggy bank so there's money for nuts and boats, oil filters, impellers, etc

[markpierce]

Two couples long term? Definitely two double beds and two bathrooms each with a shower. Each couple deserves their own space.

[Jim Cate]

Trad, you have covered a lot of issues, but one that you have so far sidestepped is: WHO is in charge... is the sailing master, captain, whatever t he title is. This isn't the silly concern of a pedant, for when severe conditions come up, some specific person must be in charge, without argument or dissent, and this responsibility isn't IMO something that can be rotated through the group... ya gotta have a skipper!

As long as you really work this out in some way that you all agree, not just in principle but in your hearts, all should be practicable. If you don't deal with this issue, disaster looms if the SHTF... and it will, some dark night!

Jim

[tradrockrat]

Well, I've avoided too much talk about the structure of our crew because I'm hoping the thread stays more about the original question - boats - than crew, but all the points you are making are valid, so here's the long post - remember, you asked for it...lol

I am the captain. Period. It doesn't matter that 5 years from now more than one of us might have all those pretty certs from the ASA classes. I'm the one who sailed solo around the west coast for 3 years. I'm the one who lived aboard and maintained a boat on his own for those years. I'm the one who's been through two pacific storms (I know! TWO whole storms?!?! I must be captain Ahab!). I'm the one who had this crazy goal of a cruising life in the first place. All four of us are in agreement. For the duration of the time we are living aboard the boat, I am the captain. When it comes to sailing decisions, there are four on board the boat and my vote counts five times.

Other than that, we know that Kyle will be the chef and in charge of the galley. He was (still is part time) a professional in the industry, and he wants that role. Our wives' have less clearly defined roles at this time, but all of them (and me) are learning electrical repair, small motor repair, sail repair, fiberglass repair, etc. There will never be a job that only one person can do. All will take their watch, all will take the helm. So far, specific roles for the wives' has been to assign housekeeping duties for the side of the boat they live in.

Money is exactly why we're incorporating. If the boat needs repairs, it comes out of the boats kitty. Period. If I decide to run a slalom course through a bunch of submerged cargo containers, the repairs come from the kitty. If my wife tries to sail up a an atoll, the repairs come from the kitty. If Kyle burns the galley down, the repairs come from the kitty. If Kyles wife Stina forgets to reef in 50 knot winds while I'm sleeping, the repairs come from the kitty. (Yes, they are sill and extreme examples - we're not really that stupid)

Also - provisions come out of the kitty, fuel comes out of the kitty, slip / mooring / entry / bribes and other fees come out of the kitty. ALL money made while cruising goes into the kitty. All crew get the same amount of personal cash a month. This was decided because I'm going to be providing 100% of the money coming into the cruising kitty for my wife and I, unless she takes odd, small jobs in the locations we go. I'll be putting $1500 a month into the kitty like clockwork from my business. The other couple have the ability to put around the same amount, but they will depend on internet access and timing - some months more, some months less. The end result is a huge potential for arguments about money. We've all agreed, 100% income is invested into the company, monthly pay is equal draw outs for the 4 of us.

When you're talking about taking money that would normally go into your retirement fund and matching it with another couples retirement fund so that you can semi retire and sail around the earth, there is no place for "Let's not ruin the magic of our friendship with silly paperwork". Stina is an investment counselor. The incorporation isn't up for debate. This is what she does for a living. The paperwork will spell out - in advance of ever needing it - where money for repairs comes from, how assets (the boat and everything on it) are to be liquidated and split up amongst the owners, how owners can sell out ownership (go back to dry land). and a few other scenarios that might crop up. This prevents arguments. if bad things happen. As one other poster said - it's easy to get along when everything is nice. The paperwork is there in case of "not nice".