Your wisdom on which vessel?

[OrignalBudman]

I need guidance on what type of boat to look at. Here are the considerations:

• Comfortable for four people, two heads and two berths if possible
• Easy to single-hand if necessary
• Ready to sail with minimal upgrade or repair

Here's the backstory:

We are starting the third chapter in our careers after my wife's recent retirement. I have been in vocational Christian ministry for 40 years; during that time we have had to provide counsel for ministry couples under duress. We were pretty good at it, and we'd like to continue that ministry in a way that combines our years of experience, training, and expertise with a love of open water.

Our vision is to offer couples an immersive counseling experience in an environment that:

1. Takes them away their normal environment
2. Isolates them from social media and electronics
3. Forces them to interact with each other 24/7 for 5 to 7 days
4. Requires them to work together on simple tasks that require communication and cooperation
5. Affords a novel experience they're unlikely to encounter elsewhere
6. Provides time and space for client couple to work on assignments, reading, and counseling/mentoring sessions

We are both in our early 70s, in excellent health, have been physically active for many years, and we both want to continue to make positive contributions and add value to the lives of others.

So I'm thinking of something in the 35' to 45' range, but beyond that I haven't got a clear picture of what we should be looking for. Ideally I suppose we should consider a multihull for the sake of passengers, but those are beyond our price range. We need to be in the mid-five figure range for a good used boat; that will leave plenty of $ for upgrades & etc.

So here's my question: What type of craft would you recommend?

[tkeithlu]

Hmmm. I can't speak to costs.

I'm thinking about it, and I just don't see how the combination works. I thought about a 40' monohull with a center cockpit, so it's not just one lane with the second berth in the middle. I thought bigger, and I ran into size to single-hand without getting much advantage, but maybe the two heads? I thought about 35ft, which in floor space is 2/3 of the 45 ft boat, and I got 4 people on top of each other.

Then I started thinking about the job. Any sail boat off shore is labor intensive, and if the weather picks up intensive for two. When are you going to counsel as a team if one person at least is on watch? How much attention are group or couple dynamics going to get if people are tired from standing watch?

It seems to me that the usual couples retreat is to isolated places (you've got that part) that place few environmental demands on the couple, such as cabins with a dining hall. Trying to do that on a small sail boat seems to me not to add up. It's little or no privacy in an environment that is at the minimum distracting.

I even thought about how it would work on my boat (44 ft, lots of internal space, two private cabins with heads, diesel) and the fact of one of us always on watch and the other covering everything from food to engine room to sleep to taking the helm while the watch person heads for the head, and it's not the environment I would choose for that task, if I were in that area of psychology, which I am not.

So, this is just my thoughts on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Pursue your dream. Someone on the forum may have some thoughts that are more positive, and hopefully will speak up.

[LLCoolDave]

It's a limited budget for a boat with two heads as you don't usually see them till 40ft. A Catalina 34 or 36 has two cabins and falls within your budget and there are a lot to choose from.

I think maybe a sailboat is not the best venue for therapy. Sailing has its own language. It's often intimidating and takes some study to grasp. Also with therapy, emotions are often raw and being stuck with someone you might be angry with 24/7 can be a really bad idea. Enjoying the motion of the boat while underway also takes some time. It would be downright annoying in a less than joyous environment.

You don't mention where you are located but if in the US you'll need a captains license if you are receiving any type of payment. Insurance as well.

[Perfect Ride]

Get to a dock, start talking to people who are actively sailing, join a club, regatta or ..., get out on boats, and ask a lot of questions while contributing in anyway you can.



From this experience you will inform yourself what is important to you in a boat.

[JebLostInSpace]

It seems to me (6 months living aboard, no experience whatsoever with counseling) that this idea (as I understand it) could actually work great for a boat on a comfortable mooring ball.

If part of the idea is to isolate the couple from distractions/electronics, this is easily accomplished by any boat that floats on a mooring.

If part of the idea is to give a novel experience, this is also easily accomplished by any boat that floats on a mooring.

If part of the idea is to force the couple to spend 24/7 together, this is also easily accomplished by any boat that floats on a mooring.

Then, if you want to provide a fun activity for the couple to learn together, you need only the ability for your boat to accomplish daysails in moderate weather. In the event of any unfavorable weather, sit on your mooring ball and do something else. In nice weather, go out for a nice relaxing sail.

This mindset could open up your vessel choice considerably. You don't need much of the stuff that the blue water crowd wants. You do need a decent generator/solar/wind setup of some sort to keep batteries topped up, especially in a potentially crowded (smaller) boat. With this in mind, almost any sailboat with 2 cabins and (if you're lucky) 2 heads will work. It doesn't have to be fast. It doesn't have to be ready to cross oceans. It just has to provide a place for 4 people to live in some semblance of comfort for a week. And it has to be kept up well enough for your participants to not get worried or grossed out.

As mentioned earlier, make sure you understand the requirements for licenses and insurance.

[OrignalBudman]

Originally Posted by LLCoolDave

...
I think maybe a sailboat is not the best venue for therapy. Sailing has its own language. It's often intimidating and takes some study to grasp. Also with therapy, emotions are often raw and being stuck with someone you might be angry with 24/7 can be a really bad idea. Enjoying the motion of the boat while underway also takes some time. It would be downright annoying in a less than joyous environment.

You raise some interesting points here and have touched on a couple of reasons why I'm thinking in this direction. We want them to dysfunction sooner rather than later. And, because we use a modified form of Bowen's Family Systems, it's easier to make on-the-fly adjustments in behavior that produce results much more quickly than "talk therapy."

Thanks for your input. I'm going to think on this some more.

[OrignalBudman]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Hmmm. I can't speak to costs.

I'm thinking about it, and I just don't see how the combination works. I thought about a 40' monohull with a center cockpit, so it's not just one lane with the second berth in the middle. I thought bigger, and I ran into size to single-hand without getting much advantage, but maybe the two heads? I thought about 35ft, which in floor space is 2/3 of the 45 ft boat, and I got 4 people on top of each other.

Thanks for this input. I know the budget I'm working with is tight. If I had more to work with I'd be looking at a multihull, but those are comfortably into six figures, which is more than I have on hand, and I definitely do not want to take on a boat payment to make this work.

I'm going to keep knocking around and see what turns up. In time I'm sure the right solution will present itself, even if it turns out to be something like eight hours of sailing from one mooring to the next followed by an easy evening on the hook.

[OrignalBudman]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

This mindset could open up your vessel choice considerably. You don't need much of the stuff that the blue water crowd wants. You do need a decent generator/solar/wind setup of some sort to keep batteries topped up, especially in a potentially crowded (smaller) boat. With this in mind, almost any sailboat with 2 cabins and (if you're lucky) 2 heads will work. It doesn't have to be fast. It doesn't have to be ready to cross oceans. It just has to provide a place for 4 people to live in some semblance of comfort for a week. And it has to be kept up well enough for your participants to not get worried or grossed out.

As mentioned earlier, make sure you understand the requirements for licenses and insurance.

Great counsel. Very helpful in getting me to think this through more carefully. I was thinking about a live aboard for my wife and I, one that we could take off and do some longer cruises on, but that may not be necessary now that you've helped me think that through.

[Fore and Aft]

OriginalBudman this really sounds like it could be a reality TV show in the making. You do realize a yacht is not an RV where you close the door and motor of into the sunset? There is so many things that can go wrong handling a yacht and if you are trying to counsel a "Couple already under duress" how are you going to explain your behaviour to them after raising your voice during a difficult sailing manoeuvre? Trust me there is going to be times you will raise your voice. Like previous posters have mentioned sailing is it's own skill set and even the most experienced sailors get into difficulties.
I like the fantasy of creating a cocoon to do the counseling but I am not sure a yacht would be the most suitable enviroment.
Cheers

[OrignalBudman]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I like the fantasy of creating a cocoon to do the counseling but I am not sure a yacht would be the most suitable enviroment.
Cheers

Thanks for your concern; you raise some points to ponder!

I've spent a lot of time in boats so I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm getting into in that regard. I've chartered in the USVI/BVI, Panama, San Diego, Hawaii, done reverses transpac and others. So I think I've got a pretty sober view of what's in store. Do have the ASA bareboat and coastal cruising certs.

The objective is to put people under pressure that's unfamiliar--sort of like what happens to raw recruits in boot camp--and watch them fail so we can step in with the proper "fix." This is necessary because ministry couples are typically very adroit at hiding their problems from the world and that's often why they implode.

Another member of the forum made a great suggestion I should have thought of earlier. Instead of making the experience 24/7 at sea, spend evenings and night on the hook. That opens up a lot of other possibilities...

Thanks for helping me think this through.

[MicHughV]

I seem to remember someone else that did this....but his boat was bi-i-i-i-i-i-i-g......I don't remember how big....but big....75' maybe.....and it was a powered vessel of some type...a re-furbished boat of some prior use....and he would be tied to a dock somewhere and not sailing anywhere.....this has several advantages....people can jump on or off with ease.....you can be plugged into shore power, you can have a/c....you can have a vehicle nearby....etc..etc...

I've often cruised with 4 people on a 43' boat....it gets cramped mighty quick....there is no such thing as personal space on a boat....

some people are prone to seasickness....in fact...a lot of people are...and sleeping on a boat is not everybody's cup of tea....

complications can quickly arise if there is a couple on board or other non-compliant or difficult person...and you'll be stuck with them....trust me on this one....

some people smoke....this would be a non-starter for me...etc..etc....

while admirable in theory.....it needs a lot more thought...I'm not sure a sailboat would be an optimum choice here...throwing someone off the deep end only to "fix" them is a risky business in a confined space.....

a 1 hour counseling session is entirely different from a 24/7 experience.....it's not like y'all will be on vacation here....

you could never cocoon me...not ever.....and I'm sure many people feel that way...

why a sailboat...why not a big RV ??

[Fore and Aft]

OriginalBudman have you considered the self harm angle? I am not sure a sailboat is the best place to break someone down so you can build them up again?
I for one would not be sleeping soundly if I knew a person onboard had just had a breakdown.
Cheers