Advice Sought. Engine Seized after installing Injection pump

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by Jack C

EDITED...I went to spray more liquid wrench into the injector ports. Cylinder #2 which is up with both valves closed was still full of liquid after 24 hours.

I would have assumed that the liquid wrench would have found its way past the rings? Maybe the rings on piston #2 are seized?

Cylinder #2 up and both valves closed indicates that cylinder is ready to fire or in other words on the power stroke. if there is still fluid on top of the piston indicates that the rings are not seized and are sealing properly and not letting fluid down the cylinder. Are you planning to remove the "head"?

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jim,
The pump is out but the idler is in, no?

Idler could be jammed to crank gear.

But also, and I can’t tell clearly from this drawing, do you remove the gear when removing the pump or just take off the flange? IOW, is the GEAR out because the pump is out?

I took the sentence in post 10

"The injector gear is now out so a seized injector pump is eliminated."

literally to mean that he has removed the gear itself from the pump, so both the injection pump and lift pump (which is mounted on and driven by the injection pump) are not the cause or contributing to the siezure.

Remember, without having a means of knowing that motion at the crank is transfered positively into the respective commensurate motions of the rest of the moving parts, there is no guaranty that the siezure isn't a culmination of several 'tight spots' instead of just one massive 'jam-up'. I've seen it before.

As far as I can tell from the exploded views, the crank gear turns the oil pump rotor and the idler gear simultaneously and axially, the idler gear turns the camshaft and inj pump gears simultaneously. Both gears are in constant mesh with the idler gear, once mounted properly they cannot become 'unmeshed', nor can their relationships be altered without extreme wear or the introduction of foreign influences, i.e. a dropped nut or washer or key.

Though I've seen cases where mice will store hard seeds inside close mechanical spaces, and have seen pictures of a 2 stroke outboard locked up solid from it's interior spaces being filled with kernels of corn, stored for hard times by industrious mice who co-inhabited the barn in which the boat and corn were stored.

Further to the 'dropped part' hypothesis, what we know so far and the geometry seem against it; the idler gear is much larger than the crank gear, for a part dropped from the injection pump side to jam those to it would have to fall up; to jam the idler gear and the cam gear it would have to fall sideways.

This does not preclude somthing from bouncing into some weird place as it fell, or wedging between a single gear and the block or the gear covers...

[hpeer]

Jim,

I agree with everything in your well written post above.

And something being akilter in this gear mesh seems unlikely.

Yet something is akilter somewhere and all the likely sources have been examined.

It is not a theory I like, it is a theory not previously well examined. It seems very unlikely something is jamming this gear set. But maybe he picked up a bit of dirt or a metal filing while reinserting the pump and that got transferred onto the idler, which then jammed the crank.

OR perhaps the idler is a bit loose and canted when the pump gear was reinserted. Who knows?

It seems all of us here are coming up empty. This is likely gonna be a “who woudda thunk it” when resolved.

The one thing that drives me to this gear set is the sudden onset without symptoms. If I read his history correctly the engine was turning fine when he took the pump out, but was siezed when he out it back. How does a non rotating engine sieze? Flooded cylinder heads is obvious but that has been ruled out. What else??? The meshed gear set?

So here is the salient question;
Is it easier to expose these gears than to pull the head?

It seems to me his next step is to pull the head, unless it makes some sense to expose these gears first.

That depends upon a lot of things, access being a big one. I just wanted to lay it out for the OP to make his own decision.

Thanks for the discussion.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by hpeer

It depends upon a lot of things, access being a big one. I just wanted to lay it out for the OP to make his own decision.

Thanks for the discussion.

And we know where you've come from, hpeer, with YOUR recent seizing conundrum!

Your perspective is certainly valuable, as this particular mystery unfolds.

I'm a fascinated bystander.

My one question to everyone - which probably has little merit: Is it material the engine was warm when he drained all the oil, then when he came back to it, it was seized...?

(Of course, he's already gone the route of penetrating oil, so this is rather a retrospective question, but that warm/cold equation is still niggling at me.)

Thank you,
LittleWing77

[hpeer]

Littlewing,

Yes, a totally self inflicted wound.

A real “learning opportunity”!!!! LOL

[Jack C]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jim,

I agree with everything in your well written post above.

And something being akilter in this gear mesh seems unlikely.

Yet something is akilter somewhere and all the likely sources have been examined.

It is not a theory I like, it is a theory not previously well examined. It seems very unlikely something is jamming this gear set. But maybe he picked up a bit of dirt or a metal filing while reinserting the pump and that got transferred onto the idler, which then jammed the crank.

OR perhaps the idler is a bit loose and canted when the pump gear was reinserted. Who knows?

It seems all of us here are coming up empty. This is likely gonna be a “who woudda thunk it” when resolved.

The one thing that drives me to this gear set is the sudden onset without symptoms. If I read his history correctly the engine was turning fine when he took the pump out, but was siezed when he out it back. How does a non rotating engine sieze? Flooded cylinder heads is obvious but that has been ruled out. What else??? The meshed gear set?

So here is the salient question;
Is it easier to expose these gears than to pull the head?

It seems to me his next step is to pull the head, unless it makes some sense to expose these gears first.

That depends upon a lot of things, access being a big one. I just wanted to lay it out for the OP to make his own decision.

Thanks for the discussion.

Sorry not quite right let me clarify.

The engine was running after the serviced injection pump went in. It would cut out on idle but rev at 2000 and 4000 rpm. Each time after cutting out at idle I bled out air on the engine fuel filter and eliminated another potential source of air until I fed the lift pump directly from a clean can of fuel. I ran the engine about 4 times. for not more than 2 minutes per time.

Then I ordered a new lift pump and also noticed fuel in the oil. I drained all the oil via a sump bolt, changed the oil filter and waited a week for the lift pump.

Installed the lift pump and added 1 liter oil to valve cover.

Decided to turn the engine using a wrench on crankshaft pulley bolt to distribute the oil. Found the engine seized.

While waiting for the lift pump the engine seized as a result of:

High revs loosened something which stuck when the engine was resting

Running with diluted oil causing seized main journal or piston

Running very rich because of starting with throttle wide open because this is the way Yanmar self bleeds the injectors. Maybe carbon build up stuck rings?? The injectors which are new have a lot of carbon around them.

Sitting with no oil in the pan for a week.

Installing a new lift pump, which when uninstalled the engine is still seized

Next action items:

1. Take of rocker. Maybe there are stuck valves that I cannot see. Should be simple as long as I can put it back without special tools

2. Expose the gears. Difficult because I need a puller for the crankshaft pulley.

3. Take off the head and have a look.

4. Keep spraying release fluid into cylinders and be patient.

5. Make a bolt on crankshaft lever so that I can try to turn backwards - Low priority because I tightened the bolt and it takes equivalent force to loosen it. So the seize is in both directions.

[Jack C]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

And we know where you've come from, hpeer, with YOUR recent seizing conundrum!

Your perspective is certainly valuable, as this particular mystery unfolds.

I'm a fascinated bystander.

My one question to everyone - which probably has little merit: Is it material the engine was warm when he drained all the oil, then when he came back to it, it was seized...?

(Of course, he's already gone the route of penetrating oil, so this is rather a retrospective question, but that warm/cold equation is still niggling at me.)

Thank you,
LittleWing77

The engine was cold when I drained the oil. I did not drain immediately after I discovered the dilution. Because my oil pump works best with hot oil and the engine was seized, hence no way to heat the oil, I pumped from the dipstick hole and then opened the banjo bolt that holds the dip stick tube to the pan,at the bottom of the pan. In this way I could drain all the oil.

A great question that adds detail but I don't see that it matters.

At this point all questions relevant or not could help. Keep them coming, maybe they will trigger something.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Jack C

A great question that adds detail but I don't see that it matters.

At this point all questions relevant or not could help. Keep them coming, maybe they will trigger something.

Yeah, I figured as much.

I'm an amateur student of diesel engine mechanics, so I've been puzzling over this.

I'm surprised Wottie hasn't chimed in a bit more. Jim Bunyard, of course, is the saltiest of Salty Diesel Engine Dawgs, but Wotname and Compass790 usually have more to contribute...

Here's hoping the mystery is solved SOON!
Warmly,
LittleWing77

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jim,

I agree with everything in your well written post above.

And something being akilter in this gear mesh seems unlikely.

Yet something is akilter somewhere and all the likely sources have been examined.

It is not a theory I like, it is a theory not previously well examined. It seems very unlikely something is jamming this gear set. But maybe he picked up a bit of dirt or a metal filing while reinserting the pump and that got transferred onto the idler, which then jammed the crank.

Another reason to arrange a positive method for crank rotation...

OR perhaps the idler is a bit loose and canted when the pump gear was reinserted. Who knows?

It seems all of us here are coming up empty. This is likely gonna be a “who woudda thunk it” when resolved.

The one thing that drives me to this gear set is the sudden onset without symptoms. If I read his history correctly the engine was turning fine when he took the pump out, but was siezed when he out it back. How does a non rotating engine sieze? Flooded cylinder heads is obvious but that has been ruled out. What else??? The meshed gear set?

So here is the salient question;
Is it easier to expose these gears than to pull the head?

It seems to me his next step is to pull the head, unless it makes some sense to expose these gears first.

That depends upon a lot of things, access being a big one. I just wanted to lay it out for the OP to make his own decision.

Which is why I'm also going into such detail...though I'm additionally trying to influence his decision in the direction of efficiency (defined as most effective with least effort).

Thanks for the discussion.

Agree it's likely to be a who'd-a-thunk-it explanation (kinda why I added the 'mice' story).

See below for my opinion on the head/gear train question.

Originally Posted by Jack C

...While waiting for the lift pump the engine seized as a result of:

High revs loosened something which stuck when the engine was resting

Running with diluted oil causing seized main journal or piston

Running very rich because of starting with throttle wide open because this is the way Yanmar self bleeds the injectors. Maybe carbon build up stuck rings?? The injectors which are new have a lot of carbon around them.

Sitting with no oil in the pan for a week.

Installing a new lift pump, which when uninstalled the engine is still seized

Next action items:

1. Take of rocker. Maybe there are stuck valves that I cannot see. Should be simple as long as I can put it back without special tools

2. Expose the gears. Difficult because I need a puller for the crankshaft pulley.

3. Take off the head and have a look.

4. Keep spraying release fluid into cylinders and be patient.

5. Make a bolt on crankshaft lever so that I can try to turn backwards - Low priority because I tightened the bolt and it takes equivalent force to loosen it. So the seize is in both directions.

With all due respect, unless there is something preventing you from using either the lever-at-the-flywheel method (access?) or the bolt-a-bar-on-the-pulley method (lack of tools or machinery?), your priorities are backwards.

All indications point to the siezure being less rather than more severe. With a positive method of turning the crank, that hypothesis will be confirmed; if something is jamming the gear train (somewhat likely) or the flywheel (somewhat less likely) or the transmission (even less likely) there will be no way to turn the engine, even with the bar (without breaking something [for which reason, care and a gradual application of force, as well as an intuitive "feel' is imperative]). The amount of torque one can put on the crank via a 12 mm bolt is very limited; I'm surprised you've not broken it, if you've put enough torque on it to turn a siezed engine...

As for which is more difficult, as you've found, there are 'certain difficulties' related to pulling the front gear case, but a big puller and perhaps some heat might alleviate that somewhat.

Technically it's a bit easier to remove the head, just a bunch of bolts, though the head is usually stuck pretty good (unless it's sealed with o'rings), but that is only a problem for novice mechanics. Cleaning (removing gaskets) and keeping the parts in order is more of an issue here

If I had to choose which to do first, depending on access, I'd go with the head.

But I'd do neither until I'd determined if the engine is really siezed or not. To me their's nothing worse than wasting time --- though in this case you will gain information about the actual condition of the engine if you choose to pull one or both...

[chris95040]

Would removing the whole oil pan be an easier way to get eyes on any of the relevant parts?

Maybe that banjo bolt had a nut on the other end of it, hehe.

[hpeer]

Jim said:

All indications point to the siezure being less rather than more severe.

But I'd do neither until I'd determined if the engine is really siezed or not. To me their's nothing worse than wasting time --- though in this case you will gain information about the actual condition of the engine if you choose to pull one or both...

I thought that these statements bore repeating and emphasis.

If it fails, well then you have lost very little.

If it succeeds you have gained a LOT.

[daw_two]

Originally Posted by Jack C

<CUT>

Started to get access to the idling gear. Tried to remove alternator belt. Finally got the alternator loose. I cannot get the belt off. There is not enough movement. The belt is just slightly loose. It appears that the previous owners had installed a belt that is too small. They must have levered it on.

<CUT>

Anybody got any other ideas?

Hi Jack C.

You have a most interesting problem.

Question: Did you ever get the alternator belt off? Could the alternator have failed and the tight belt is keeping you from turning the engine? I'm trying to think outside the box.

[Sailshabby]

Originally Posted by Jack C

You make a very good point.

This what happened:

Engine ran. It ran for a few minutes at high rpm, would not idle. Stalled at low revs. Then I drained all the oil. It sat for about a week.

Then I replaced oil filter, Added 1 liter oil and found the engine seized.

So the seizing happened gradually. No bangs. So valve did not hit piston and gears did not suddenly jam.

What can cause a gradual seize.
Liquid in cylinders. But injectors are out and still seized.
Oil ring on piston seized due to poor lubrication? Maybe.
Crankshaft bearings through oil starvation? Maybe, but no metal bits in oil filter or oil.

So now its down to daily adding of penetrating oil. Yesterday I noted that after filling with oil, one cylinder retained the oil while the others drained. Maybe stuck rings or maybe I did not add enough oil to fill the cylinders which were lower. Today I will take a fine rod to check cylinder position and will add more oil.

Also today I check the valves. A large gap between rocker arm and valve stem cap will indicate a stuck open valve.

Next episode in a few hours.

(You realize you’ve got dozens of interested sailors looking over your shoulder, each feeling your pain, but absolutely riveted, right? &#128521

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jack C

Sorry not quite right let me clarify.

The engine was running after the serviced injection pump went in. It would cut out on idle but rev at 2000 and 4000 rpm. Each time after cutting out at idle I bled out air on the engine fuel filter and eliminated another potential source of air until I fed the lift pump directly from a clean can of fuel. I ran the engine about 4 times. for not more than 2 minutes per time.

Did the engine idle and rev normally when you ran it from a clean can of fuel each of those 4 times? Did it sound normal each time? On the 4th time, did you shut it down or did it quit on its own? I can't imagine it got that hot running only 2 minutes at a time, but I am assuming you saw the temp was fine.

I am still leaning toward something jamming the gears but I'm only a backyard mechanic.

[Jack C]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Did the engine idle and rev normally when you ran it from a clean can of fuel each of those 4 times? Did it sound normal each time? On the 4th time, did you shut it down or did it quit on its own? I can't imagine it got that hot running only 2 minutes at a time, but I am assuming you saw the temp was fine.

I am still leaning toward something jamming the gears but I'm only a backyard mechanic.

Some answers:
Q: Did the engine idle and rev normally when you ran it from a clean can of fuel each of those 4 times?

A. Initially it idled fine and reved normally then after a minute of idling it started to stutter and die. My thoughts are at high revs the air was accumulating or passing through and after a minute or two there was fuel starvation due to air buildup. This happened all 4 times.