Common Rail Diesels - Experience

[michaeld]

I live in Florida. We have an abundance of lightening. My friend's catamaran took a strike. He lost both engine ECUs as well as all of his electronics. Fortunately he was not offshore when it occurred. It took weeks for replacement of the Yanmar ECUs. YMMV.

[sinnerman]

I do not have a Yanmar with the common rail system, so I have no personal experience of their reliability. I would expect that they are extremely reliability when brand new. However I have years of experience on cars with common rail (gasoline) injection systems.

You need specialized (electronic) equipment to troubleshoot a common rail electronic control system. Not sure if Yanmar (or others) will allow "Non-Authorized" mechanics access to this equipment.

There is a war going on in the USA between farmers and John Deere over this exact issue: farmers like to fix their own stuff, and John Deere tells them the stuff is "proprietary" and can only be worked on by John Deere "authorized dealers.."

SO if there is an electrical issue with the engine control system, you will may need to call a Yanmar mechanic out to the boat. Hard to do in Bora-Bora.

The diesel in my sailboat (Westerbeke-Universal) is built from a Kubota tractor engine of which there are millions in the world. Any diesel mechanic (or monkey) can work on it. It is extremely simple in design, robust and if maintained properly and run with clean fuel , it will outlive the boat or even its owner.

The "beauty" of a common rail system, is that the fuel can be precisely metered, which means smoother idle, less vibration (theoretically), lower exhaust emissions (the real driver for utilizing this system) and less fuel consumption.

There is no "injector pump" or "pump timing" to be set. The injectors are not "popped" by a sudden high pressure pulse of fuel from the injector pump like on a normal diesel.

On the common rail, the fuel pressure is maintained constant at the injector inlets (via a pressure regulator) and the injectors fired electrically by a signal from the ECU. There are electrical sensors on the engine to feed the ECU so it can decide when and for how long to fire the injectors.

The issue on a salt water, ocean-going boat (especially a sailboat) will be corrosion at the electrical connectors. You will need to have a maintenance task of periodically spraying the electrical connectors with WD-40 to keep the water/corrosion at bay...

If the engine gets wet with salt water or the bilge floods, with a conventional diesel you rinse it with fresh water, check/ change the oil then keep on trucking. With a common rail system you might get serious reliability issues after salt water flooding (unless they are using gold-plated contacts on the connectors).

My two cents.

Cheers.

[BrightAyes]

Thanks for all the feedback
Bright Ayes

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

If the engine gets wet with salt water or the bilge floods, with a conventional diesel you rinse it with fresh water, check/ change the oil then keep on trucking. With a common rail system you might get serious reliability issues after salt water flooding (unless they are using gold-plated contacts on the connectors).
.

Yep, specially when the notoriously leaking Sherwood salt water pump begins to slowly drip, unnoticed by you, those drips hit the pumps v-belt and a fine salt mist begins to cover everything on the engine. Electrical connections to the injectors can be repaired but I hope your ECU could be very well sealed.

[goboatingnow]

it doesn't really matter , as small mechanically governed engines are in their last gasps, it virtually impossible to meet emerging emissions standards with them, so just like chart plotters, better get used to carry a spare ECU . Big engines have all gone computer controlled anyway

[hgd137]

Do yourself a favor. Consider the Beta 85, a marinize Kobuto, totally mechanical, bullet prove, fuel sipping engine.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

I'd make sure the ECU was plug and play before buying one. Might be. Might not. Almost every car and truck and off road ECU has to be coded to the vehicle. Most have an idle adjustment or "learn" process which often involves a scan tool of some kind

The ECU isn't coded to the engine , ( the engine is a lump of metal ) . typically an ECU and the Transmission system are coded together in a car, This will not apply in most boats

Secondly most ECUs will relearn the engine itself , my Range rover did a fine job of that

Standard industrial engines with ECUs , are just another spare part to replace, easier then doing a starter motor . Few require any sort of " scan" tool to do standard stuff that doesn't involve reconfiguration or new fuel mapping

( as an aside John Deere is an issue over software licenses not the actual repair issue )

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by hgd137

Do yourself a favor. Consider the Beta 85, a marinize Kobuto, totally mechanical, bullet prove, fuel sipping engine.

and 40 hp less then the OPs engine

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

I do not have a Yanmar with the common rail system, so I have no personal experience of their reliability. I would expect that they are extremely reliability when brand new. However I have years of experience on cars with common rail (gasoline) injection systems.

Cars engines systems are very different as the ECU is integrated into the other systems in the car, this is not the same as industrial engines with ECUs

You need specialized (electronic) equipment to troubleshoot a common rail electronic control system. Not sure if Yanmar (or others) will allow "Non-Authorized" mechanics access to this equipment.

you mentioned you have no direct experience, yet you now put forwarded an unsubstantiated opinion, you either know or dont

There is a war going on in the USA between farmers and John Deere over this exact issue: farmers like to fix their own stuff, and John Deere tells them the stuff is "proprietary" and can only be worked on by John Deere "authorized dealers.."

That's not the issue , Deere software licenses are the issue , Deere is losing the battle both in the US and the EU and in fact in the EU car company's for example must support third party repair with the same tools as dealers

SO if there is an electrical issue with the engine control system, you will may need to call a Yanmar mechanic out to the boat. Hard to do in Bora-Bora.

unsubstantiated, in fact I know on some islands , there are better local experts with all the tech gear in many cases ( cause such engines are increasingly common on land ) The situation will only improve

The diesel in my sailboat (Westerbeke-Universal) is built from a Kubota tractor engine of which there are millions in the world. Any diesel mechanic (or monkey) can work on it. It is extremely simple in design, robust and if maintained properly and run with clean fuel , it will outlive the boat or even its owner.

Sure sure, but its a dinosaur , to meet emissions, all diesels ( in their twilight years will be ECU controlled)

The "beauty" of a common rail system, is that the fuel can be precisely metered, which means smoother idle, less vibration (theoretically), lower exhaust emissions (the real driver for utilizing this system) and less fuel consumption.

There is no "injector pump" or "pump timing" to be set. The injectors are not "popped" by a sudden high pressure pulse of fuel from the injector pump like on a normal diesel.

On the common rail, the fuel pressure is maintained constant at the injector inlets (via a pressure regulator) and the injectors fired electrically by a signal from the ECU. There are electrical sensors on the engine to feed the ECU so it can decide when and for how long to fire the injectors.

Yup , we know this

The issue on a salt water, ocean-going boat (especially a sailboat) will be corrosion at the electrical connectors. You will need to have a maintenance task of periodically spraying the electrical connectors with WD-40 to keep the water/corrosion at bay...

Electronics can survive when all life is wiped out on the planet , its an engineering decision

If the engine gets wet with salt water or the bilge floods, with a conventional diesel you rinse it with fresh water, check/ change the oil then keep on trucking. With a common rail system you might get serious reliability issues after salt water flooding (unless they are using gold-plated contacts on the connectors).

No reason your ECU has to be in the engine bay or can be in a completely sealed enclosure

My two cents.

Cheers.

I spent years in engine assembly tooling design ( robotics )

[Ninedotsix]

Originally Posted by NBs

You're right, old diesels are heavily built and last a long time, fueling almost any combustible liquid from a cooked fat seal. here is a good example

https://youtu.be/GCpJF8QUf1Q

some hot bulb diesels are still in use ... the video is from a small machine and these can be found bigger if needed.

Nbs

Really liking the way it blows smoke rings!!
Which had me reminded of motoring downwind, with the exhaust coming up over aft rail, soaking into clothes and lower lungs.
I drive a common rail automobile, and really appreciate how the technology can get 43mpg at highway speeds. Only with an ECU and sensors is this possible. The predecessor mechanical car with same engine did its best to get 30mpg.

I burn low sulfur fuel in my Yanmar engine, to minimize fuel oil odor below, and exhaust odor.

Not sure the marine engineers have the onboard engine room environment in mind, but I bet they thought a lot about reliability.

My $0.02
9.6

[bcboomer]

One more thing to remember is that the common rail pressures are so high that a fuel leak can penetrate your body andl kill you.

[jmschmidt]

RaymondR and others are spot on. Don't do it. I was in the hot tub with my crew and others at the hotel in Papeete once and one of the guys was a delivery skipper in transit with a 60' cat enroute to Panama and the Caribbean. Seems he got 400NM east of Tahiti when both of the new computerized Volvos packed up. They ran all the diagnostics per the manual. The last message on the screen...Contact Customer Service. Since the engines were under warrantee, they waited it out.

He had been in the hotel one month, and no one had showed up yet.

[RaymondR]

I have a Transit van which has a common rail diesel in it. It has a bad habit of shutting the engine down if I get too playful with the accelerator. Lots of power and good fuel economy but really annoying in city traffic. I'd rather have less power and fuel economy in exchange for the nuisance and would not have another one.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Barkingmad

...

You're pretty much SOL trying to repair a newer John Deere farm tractor on your own without the JD factory tech only scan software, think there may be a class action lawsuit about that...
I'll rebuild before I stick one of those things in my boat. ...

Correct. There is a lawsuit in the US against JD over their policy that prevents owners from repairing their equipment. My understanding is that JD will NOT to sell a spare ECU to an owner. The JD ECU is matched to the engine.

https://www.frontierpower.com/service/swapjdecu.htm

Basically, the link discusses the need to program the ECU, JD can do it for you or the dealer can, but the ECU and engine are matched.

Whenever a Tier-2 or Tier-3 John Deere engine ECU is swapped over to another engine, a situation occurs when a fresh or updated payload is attempted to be uploaded. This situation is referred to as a “serial number mismatch”. If the 2 engines involved are identical in power rating and trim settings, you may not notice anything different and the engine will run and likely run OK. Beware, however, if swapping ECUs to similar engines (ie. same model & displacement but not the same payload or software parameters); if the power rating or throttle settings are different, you will run into problems, possibly affecting starting and performance. This will also cause the engine to be out of emissions compliance. Engine ECUs are serialized like the engine, and both are “associated” to each other within the payload. Most people are not aware of this.

What happens is this; installing a payload to an ECU not associated to a specific engine serial number gets an error of “10-573-134: ECU serial number does not match the expected serial number in the payload”, in other words “serial number mismatch”. This happens whenever a new blank “replacement” ECU is being programmed and the original ECU is not available, or when ECUs are swapped and left on the engine and a fresh payload is trying to be installed. In most cases, the upload process asks to be connected to the original ECU and therefore may avoid this error. This can also be avoided by ordering the new blank ECU pre-loaded with the current correct payload when placing the order. John Deere charges a fee for this additional to the price of the ECU. Typically this is not necessary for our dealers or OEMs with ServiceADVISOR™ programming tool and training.

Apparently this is all too common and can only be corrected with a DTAC case submitted to the factory engineers. Once they have tweaked the payload, then the new ECU serial number can then be associated to the applicable engines serial number when uploaded to the new ECU. Then a confirmation Return File must be sent back to John Deere to register the new ECU serial number to be accepted by the revised payload file.

What this also means, if not corrected, is you or another technician will receive this error when trying to install a fresh or updated payload at a later date, and be unable to complete the programming.

Later,
Dan

[FPNC]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

and 40 hp less then the OPs engine

OP's engine makes 69 hp @ 3700 RPM. Beta 85T makes 83 hp @ 2800 RPM.