Common Rail Diesels - Experience

[bcboomer]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

I have a late 90's Dodge Ram that has intermittent wipers, power locks, power widows, cruise control, and daytime running lights. And it has no body computer. Back up cameras can be independent of computer control. A computer for these is a needless complexity. If some people want the needless extras, then they should be free to have them included. But burdening all purchasers with needless expenses is not necessary. Auto manufactures have gone computer mad.

Your power windows don't have a safety that stops it from crushing kid's fingers, your power locks don't automatically lock/unlock with speed, your cruise control and daytime running lights do have control modules. Built in backup cameras do things like lower the radio volume and adjust the mirrors.

The manufacturers put these in because the buyers want them.

[moidus]

I chose to rebuild our 4JH2-DTE rather than replace, partly due to travel into areas without electronic support. As long as you have electricity to turn a non-common rail engine then you are mobile. And there was the cost ...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

Just because something is cheaper initially does not make it less costly over time. Old basic switch and relay controlled devices are much easier to troubleshoot, having few components. Wire is not a factor in cost. Wire is still needed to get from the switch to the computer, and from the computer to the washer pump. Computers are not high current sources, so a relay is still required. Why would a vehicle require a "body computer"? Body mounted electrical devices have existed for decades with no computers. Switches, relays, and wires are very reliable, and much simpler to troubleshoot and repair. Needless computerization introduces higher repair costs.

The costs of a cars wiring loom , both in actual material and the labour needed to fit it is substantial, relays are mechanical devices that have quite poor survivability compared to modern solid state devices and modern cars have largely removed most of the old relays

Modern MOSFET switches completely outperform relays , MOSFETS in a car now switch most devices, like heaters, head lamps, wiper motors etc , very few relays are used these days for any sort of electronic controlled switching

Upmarket cars which tend to have significant automation , will use 3 CAN buses with the ECU on the highest priority one , Most low speed accessories like electric windows , mirrors etc will use LIN bus, a simple low speed one wire computer bus, while many cars entertainment systems use fibre optics etc . So inthe places of dozens of wires from say a central switch console or a drivers door switch pod, you now have power and a single LIN bus wire, the saving in copper and installation more then justifies the electronics

Modern cars are far more reliable and durable then the bangers of 1960 eras

Switches, relays, and wires are very reliable, and much simpler to troubleshoot and repair. Needless computerization introduces higher repair costs

cars are increasing designed not to be repaired, largely because some bloke with little formal training and a few spanners, simply cannot repair a modern engine properly. The factory is using high accuracy precision robotic assembly, tolerances are beyond human reproducibility. BMW engineers in 1988 ( the last assembly line design I worked on ) said that no mechanic could rebuild any engine to the same specifications and tolerances as the production line.

Computerisation is used because it is reliable , cost effective and provides far more benefits then other methods used previously

IN engines for example, it has led to quick start diesels , improved economy and modern emissions specifications simply CANNOT be met by mechanically controlled diesels . SO it doesn't really matter what people say here , unless you are going to dig up old diesels from a scrap yard and fit them ( a process that in Europe would be contrary to the legal position ) its likely that increasingly all diesels will be computer controlled Currently the breakover point is around 100hp , but it will tumble over the next few years as the new emissions are very tough for these engines to meet.

The same thing is happening in outboards, with EFI ( which is computer controlled ) now available at around 10hp and no doubt all EFI based outboards are only a year or two away

On a modern yachts there are dozens of "computers" , one more in the engine doesn't really make much of a difference.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

I have a late 90's Dodge Ram that has intermittent wipers, power locks, power widows, cruise control, and daytime running lights. And it has no body computer. Back up cameras can be independent of computer control. A computer for these is a needless complexity. If some people want the needless extras, then they should be free to have them included. But burdening all purchasers with needless expenses is not necessary. Auto manufactures have gone computer mad.

well its all computer driven now
"What is the Dodge Ram Type A CANBUS System?
Introduced in 2009 Ram trucks, the first and least common CANBUS system is called “Type A” and is not as picky in operation. If your 2009-2016 Dodge Ram uses the Type A CANBUS system all you need is a good Hylux GEN 4 HID conversion kit (35w only!) + the Dodge Ram Specific CANBUS Integration module. This is a totally plug and play HID kit upgrade for the Ram headlights and works with almost no issues. Even with this integration kit you still may experience intermittent operational issues like one side not firing at first, or a slight flicker. But other than those slight nuisances they will work great in your Ram truck! To see all of the Type A CANBUS headlight upgrade kits click here for HID or LED."

the latest Dodge RAM has a very sophisticated CAN BUS based control system with several control computers

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The costs of a cars wiring loom , both in actual material and the labour needed to fit it is substantial, relays are mechanical devices that have quite poor survivability compared to modern solid state devices and modern cars have largely removed most of the old relays

Modern MOSFET switches completely outperform relays , MOSFETS in a car now switch most devices, like heaters, head lamps, wiper motors etc , very few relays are used these days for any sort of electronic controlled switching

Upmarket cars which tend to have significant automation , will use 3 CAN buses with the ECU on the highest priority one , Most low speed accessories like electric windows , mirrors etc will use LIN bus, a simple low speed one wire computer bus, while many cars entertainment systems use fibre optics etc . So inthe places of dozens of wires from say a central switch console or a drivers door switch pod, you now have power and a single LIN bus wire, the saving in copper and installation more then justifies the electronics

Modern cars are far more reliable and durable then the bangers of 1960 eras



cars are increasing designed not to be repaired, largely because some bloke with little formal training and a few spanners, simply cannot repair a modern engine properly. The factory is using high accuracy precision robotic assembly, tolerances are beyond human reproducibility. BMW engineers in 1988 ( the last assembly line design I worked on ) said that no mechanic could rebuild any engine to the same specifications and tolerances as the production line.

Computerisation is used because it is reliable , cost effective and provides far more benefits then other methods used previously

IN engines for example, it has led to quick start diesels , improved economy and modern emissions specifications simply CANNOT be met by mechanically controlled diesels . SO it doesn't really matter what people say here , unless you are going to dig up old diesels from a scrap yard and fit them ( a process that in Europe would be contrary to the legal position ) its likely that increasingly all diesels will be computer controlled Currently the breakover point is around 100hp , but it will tumble over the next few years as the new emissions are very tough for these engines to meet.

The same thing is happening in outboards, with EFI ( which is computer controlled ) now available at around 10hp and no doubt all EFI based outboards are only a year or two away

On a modern yachts there are dozens of "computers" , one more in the engine doesn't really make much of a difference.

All that gadgetery is fine while it works. But when something fails the cost of troubleshooting and repair can far exceed what might have been saveon on wiring. It requires very specialized knowledge at extremely high dealership labor rates. Agreed, that electronic relays are more reliable than mechanical relays. But I have all original mechanical relays in my 24 year old truck, and they keep working. If one does fail, the trouble is easily solved, and spare relays are not expensive. A serial communications bus requires specialized test equipment. But my old switch and relay system can be examined with any cheap VOM. Even with all the savings that serial communications offers in manufacturing, the cost of new vehicles continues to rise. So to the purchaser, these manufacturing savings do not seem to matter. When such things as tail lights are switched by a serial bus, even adding a trailer connection can require reprogramming the system. And this is an added cost.



So when one of these high tech robotically manufactured engines requires repair or overhaul to tolerances only achievable at the factory, what are the options? Must an engine be scrapped and replaced with a new assembly line unit? It seems that this kind of technology only drives up costs. It is also wasteful, as scrapping of a vehicle or an engine and replacing it becomes lower in cost than repairing.


And what is the real need for tougher emissions standards? CO2 is only a minor greenhouse gas that is only about 1/72 of the atmospheric water vapor content of the atmosphere. Water vapor is the predominant green house gas. CO2 has little to do with climate warming, which is mostly governed by solar activity.



The older technology allows for more flexible and lower cost repair options. This is especially true for boats which may experience failure in remote places where qualified service is not available.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

All that gadgetery is fine while it works. But when something fails the cost of troubleshooting and repair can far exceed what might have been saveon on wiring. It requires very specialized knowledge at extremely high dealership labor rates. Agreed, that electronic relays are more reliable than mechanical relays. But I have all original mechanical relays in my 24 year old truck, and they keep working. If one does fail, the trouble is easily solved, and spare relays are not expensive. A serial communications bus requires specialized test equipment. But my old switch and relay system can be examined with any cheap VOM. Even with all the savings that serial communications offers in manufacturing, the cost of new vehicles continues to rise. So to the purchaser, these manufacturing savings do not seem to matter. When such things as tail lights are switched by a serial bus, even adding a trailer connection can require reprogramming the system. And this is an added cost.

The ultimate goal of car designers is to remove the need to service the vehicle at all , its not a profit centre for manufacturers. This is one of the great unspoken advantages of EVs, less and less mechanical parts , its largely the mechanical stuff, that fails or needs repairing , designing electronics for 100,000 hours operating survivability is not at all difficult, designing an engine for that is very expensive.

The fact is that in a modern developed country labour rates are such that its getting impossible to fix anything or the parts cost is so low compared to the labour that the punter will not pay. for example my TVs now last well beyond the point at which I upgrade them ( about every 7-10 years ) my washing machine electronics are always still working long after the mechanicals have died.

Car prices are largely a function of brand and market dynamics and have little to do with the actual costs in the car . The manufacturing price point say between Toyota and BMW is far less then then the retail price point would lead you to believe for example.

So when one of these high tech robotically manufactured engines requires repair or overhaul to tolerances only achievable at the factory, what are the options? Must an engine be scrapped and replaced with a new assembly line unit? It seems that this kind of technology only drives up costs. It is also wasteful, as scrapping of a vehicle or an engine and replacing it becomes lower in cost than repairing.

The short answer, yes , scrap it , the longer answer the manufacturer is making it more reliable but less repairable. In my Dads time car engines were toast at 100,000 miles, these days modern engines will do at least twice that and more . Most of that is down to improved manufacturing processes , better machining tolerances and lately better electronics ( self adapting systems systems etc ) . You can howl at the moon , but its the way everything will be, there is no money in fixing things !!!

And what is the real need for tougher emissions standards? CO2 is only a minor greenhouse gas that is only about 1/72 of the atmospheric water vapor content of the atmosphere. Water vapor is the predominant green house gas. CO2 has little to do with climate warming, which is mostly governed by solar activity.

The recent main focus is on pollutants , NOX, SOX , diesel particulates etc , not greenhouse emissions like CO or Co2. Couple this to a demand for (a) longer service intervals and (b) improved fuel economy and these things HAVE to mean computer controlled engines. It simply cant be done with mechanical control systems any more

The older technology allows for more flexible and lower cost repair options. This is especially true for boats which may experience failure in remote places where qualified service is not available.

Its all a matter of your knowledge, you can quite happily put yourself on a Volvo tech course and buy the neccessary kit and hey presto you can fix everything

In my experience very few boaters can fix anything other then simple engine faults, everything else needs specialist knowledge. Walk into a back yard mechanic shop these days and have a look at the computer diagnostic gear the have , you'll be surprised.

Think of the fun when there's only EVs to be serviced, it will easier to get your TV fixed I reckon

I hung around with a lot of car engines designers at one time when I was designing robotic assembly equipment, your average car designer doesn't want any nasty human meddling with his design !!!!

The Solution is that " remote places " are getting less remote !!! , everyone will have to be on roughly the same page within a decade anyway

[Sinbad_Sailing]

My first post on this site.

My experience with an aftermarket ECU 4 years ago.
I was adding a 2 ohm pickup resistor to get an oil temp sensor installed. I neglected to disconnect the battery and ended up shorting a $1400 ECU adding a 2 cent resistor because I accidentally touched the hot 5v wire to the chassis.

$250 dollars and 3 weeks later I got the ECU back from the manufacturer.

Expensive lesson.

This week - different car - thanks to Google - I diagnosed an ABS fault using the ODB 1 port a jumper wire and flashing dash lights to figure out the right front wheel speed sensor had an issue. Turns out the wires drooped and the tire rubbed through the plug and wires. The replacement parts came in today and ill fix it tomorrow.

The battery is already disconnected - I remembered the Expensive lesson.

My point - something really simple and easy to do fried an Expensive part that had I been in the middle of nowhere on a boat would have made life very hard.

The 2nd part is an ECU very quickly told me why a safety feature wasn't working.

Gotta take the good with the bad. I lean towards computerized things because as long as the computer is working it can tell me what the problem is.

Another poster said the mechanical in a washer and dryer will go before the electronics - this has not been my experience - but I try to fix both myself.

Physically fixing things is rewarding when you spend your days at a computer fixing virtual things.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Sinbad_Sailing

My first post on this site.

My experience with an aftermarket ECU 4 years ago.
I was adding a 2 ohm pickup resistor to get an oil temp sensor installed. I neglected to disconnect the battery and ended up shorting a $1400 ECU adding a 2 cent resistor because I accidentally touched the hot 5v wire to the chassis.

$250 dollars and 3 weeks later I got the ECU back from the manufacturer.

Expensive lesson.

This week - different car - thanks to Google - I diagnosed an ABS fault using the ODB 1 port a jumper wire and flashing dash lights to figure out the right front wheel speed sensor had an issue. Turns out the wires drooped and the tire rubbed through the plug and wires. The replacement parts came in today and ill fix it tomorrow.

The battery is already disconnected - I remembered the Expensive lesson.

My point - something really simple and easy to do fried an Expensive part that had I been in the middle of nowhere on a boat would have made life very hard.

The 2nd part is an ECU very quickly told me why a safety feature wasn't working.

Gotta take the good with the bad. I lean towards computerized things because as long as the computer is working it can tell me what the problem is.

Another poster said the mechanical in a washer and dryer will go before the electronics - this has not been my experience - but I try to fix both myself.

Physically fixing things is rewarding when you spend your days at a computer fixing virtual things.

Electronic control modules may be cheap to manufacture, but are very expensive when spares must be purchased. Owners of failed appliances have the same sad experience. A appliance that is only a few years old that is mechanically sound. But the control board is fried. The technicians are not able to repair the board, and a new one costs $ hundreds. They end up trashing an appliance that should otherwise have years of service remaining. Excessive electronic controls are causing wasteful discard of otherwise good equipment. My old mechanical timer controlled washing machine is probably more than ten years old, and it has been very reliable. It will probably go another ten. The one before that failed due to a warn shaft seal, and the machine was quite old, perhaps fifteen years. Shaft seals of course are a weak point that is the same for both mechanical and electronic controlled washing machines. The problem is unavoidable.



Your $1400 disaster is an example of how excessive electronics technology embedded in mechanical systems causes large needless expense. Such a failure would not happen to an old engine because the computer was not there to fail.


I have found an article called "Decomputerize Your Dodge". The 2nd generation Ram diesels are mechanically injected. The computer only controls peripheral equipment. So the computer can quite easily be replaced with switches, relays, etc. I've been gathering materials to do the job. It is only a matter of time before the 24 year old computer fails. Even if a spare computer can be found, it will likely be so expensive that the truck would become scrap. But the truck is mechanically sound.


Scrapping it would be a huge waste, and then I would have a huge cost of a newer vehicle which would be much more electronically laden, and have even more potential for such costly failure. The it generation Rams had no computer, and many of them are still on the road. They do not have a computer to fail and turn them into scrap metal. They are very repairable. Anyone who calls themselves a mechanic and has basic tools and equipment can repair them. And amateurs can solve many problems too. This is technology it its finest, when it is very repairable.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The ultimate goal of car designers is to remove the need to service the vehicle at all , its not a profit centre for manufacturers. This is one of the great unspoken advantages of EVs, less and less mechanical parts , its largely the mechanical stuff, that fails or needs repairing , designing electronics for 100,000 hours operating survivability is not at all difficult, designing an engine for that is very expensive.


In theory, of course EV's have this advantage of fewer moving parts. But this does not make them loss costly to purchase. Another weakness is the battery, Once the battery deteriorates, its replacement cost is so high, that it is uneconomical to replace. The car will be scrapped when it is otherwise sound. EV's are like cordless tools. After about 3 - 5 years of moderate use, the battery fails. The bearings are a bit worn. New battery cost is at least half the cost of the tool when it was bought, so the tool gets tossed.




Statistics show that car dealers bring in more than half their revenue in service and repair work, making this a huge profit generator.


The fact is that in a modern developed country labour rates are such that its getting impossible to fix anything or the parts cost is so low compared to the labour that the punter will not pay. for example my TVs now last well beyond the point at which I upgrade them ( about every 7-10 years ) my washing machine electronics are always still working long after the mechanicals have died.

Car prices are largely a function of brand and market dynamics and have little to do with the actual costs in the car . The manufacturing price point say between Toyota and BMW is far less then then the retail price point would lead you to believe for example.


This is not surprising. Manufacturers take advantage of customer perception more than real material value of their product. It really is deceptive marketing methods. Vehicles are designed to make repairs difficult.



The short answer, yes , scrap it , the longer answer the manufacturer is making it more reliable but less repairable. In my Dads time car engines were toast at 100,000 miles, these days modern engines will do at least twice that and more . Most of that is down to improved manufacturing processes , better machining tolerances and lately better electronics ( self adapting systems systems etc ) . You can howl at the moon , but its the way everything will be, there is no money in fixing things !!!


That is a very wasteful situation to scrap otherwise perfectly good equipment due to "electronically inflated" design. If the technology is advancing in ways to truly improve reliability, they must be economically repairable. Technology appropriately applied should make equipment more repairable. Taking the example of farm tractors. Older tractors were generally quite rugged and reliable. They were often used by the same owner for many years, so that the owner got self trained in maintenance and repair. They were quite basic, and farmers could do a lot of their own repairs. Compare that to modern tractors with all the electronic bells and whistles. The farmer is at the mercy of expensive hourly service rates. And the clock starts ticking the moment that the mechanic leaves the shop. And the farm can be several hours away.



The recent main focus is on pollutants , NOX, SOX , diesel particulates etc , not greenhouse emissions like CO or Co2. Couple this to a demand for (a) longer service intervals and (b) improved fuel economy and these things HAVE to mean computer controlled engines. It simply cant be done with mechanical control systems any more



How much more do NOX and SOX emissions need to be improved? They have been drastically reduced over several decades. It gets to the point where practical limits must be considered.



Engines have existed for decades without this "can of worms" technology, and they have been quite reliable. Many modern engines have been "choked" with emission controls that inhibit fuel economy. This is readily observed in the after market "tuner chip" industry. These permit user control of settings that can actually improve fuel economy beyond that of factory default settings. And we have seen how trustworthy manufacturers can be with emissions claims after the Volkswagen fraud was exposed.


Its all a matter of your knowledge, you can quite happily put yourself on a Volvo tech course and buy the neccessary kit and hey presto you can fix everything


What boat or vehicle owner is going to pay for this expensive training and equipment ? It would be much more economical to have basic technology to deal with.



In my experience very few boaters can fix anything other then simple engine faults, everything else needs specialist knowledge. Walk into a back yard mechanic shop these days and have a look at the computer diagnostic gear the have , you'll be surprised.


Many boat owners are capable of doing much of their own repair work. This can include a complete engine overhaul. Even if they do not have the advanced skills to do much, the more basic the technology, the easier it is to get local service at more ports in the world. From personal experience, I was having trouble with a computerized Cat generator that was beyond solvable with basic trouble shooting. The local Cat dealer mechanic was called while the vessel was in port at Sydney, NS. The mechanic told me that he did not have the special Cat diagnostic tool. When he needs it, it has to be sent from Dartmouth, which is about a five hour drive. So not all dealers equip themselves with required equipment. This destroyed any confidence that I might have had in Caterpillar. If their dealer network is not equipped to solve any problem with any engine that company has produced, what is the good of dealer service?



Later, even the dealer from Montreal was still unable to diagnose the problem. It turned out that the mechanic had only the diagnostic computer for the electronic governor. He did not have the diagnostic tool for the control module that was on the side of the engine. So that engine required two separate diagnostic tools, that even a dealer mechanic in a city the size of Montreal did not have. This shows what a nightmare servicing of computerized engines can be. The dealer network is ill equipped. With mechanically injected engines, this kind of incompetence and technical "red tape" would never happen.



Think of the fun when there's only EVs to be serviced, it will easier to get your TV fixed I reckon

I hung around with a lot of car engines designers at one time when I was designing robotic assembly equipment, your average car designer doesn't want any nasty human meddling with his design !!!!

The Solution is that " remote places " are getting less remote !!! , everyone will have to be on roughly the same page within a decade anyway

Sorry, but I cannot agree with your on that. Sydney, Nova Scotia is not so remote. It is certainly not as remote as say Saint Anthony Newfoundland, or some tiny port in the West Indies. Engine repair companies in small local markets are not equipping themselves, and even in the large centers they have proven to be a failure. Even Cat service Montreal, one of the largest cities in Canada was not equipped to diagnose about a 100 HP engine that would frequently shut itself down for no apparent reason. Advanced electronic engine controls are a complete failure when it comes to getting electronic problems solved.



I understand your perspective as a designer of modern vehicle manufacturing systems. Modern technology seems like a fantastic thing when you have seemingly unlimited resources of a huge company to call upon. You are will trained yourself, and when you need access to expertise outside your specialized knowledge, you have others to call upon. Design departments split up the work amongst various specialists such as electronics, mechanical, data, etc. That is how R & D and manufacturing work in large companies. In the real world of repair, access to such resources is no so abundant. In field service it comes down to one guy limited to the tools that he can carry, and the limits of his own knowledge.


In their quest for advanced technology, engine and vehicle manufacturers have forgotten the needs of customers. Governments have imposed unreasonable emission standards. They even set standards before the technology to achieve them exists. This can result in some very highly rushed design work that can perform poorly and/or fail easily. And of course be costly to repair. For example, some of the early diesel exhaust fluid systems were costly failures.

[RaymondR]

The primary reason for changing to electronic control of diesel engines was exhaust emissions. We can probably all remember the trucks going down the highway belching a cloud of smoke every time the driver changed gears and applied the accelerator. Fuel economy was not a significant factor as diesel was generally cheaper than petrol and unit consumption per horsepower lower. However, in addition to lower emissions electronic control of fuel injection also provide even greater fuel economy and the diesel Volkswagon Golf was even more liquid fuel economic than the early gas/electric vehicles.

At the moment engine manufacturers appear to be keeping fairly tight control of their fuel management electronics but if this stuff goes the route of all other electronics equipment the day will come when one goes to the auto shop and picks up a fuel computer, and other electronic fuel system components, off a shelf with after market parts from a number of sources. When this day comes we will all probably carry a couple of spares in the box along with the spare v belts and water pump impellers.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

The primary reason for changing to electronic control of diesel engines was exhaust emissions. We can probably all remember the trucks going down the highway belching a cloud of smoke every time the driver changed gears and applied the accelerator. Fuel economy was not a significant factor as diesel was generally cheaper than petrol and unit consumption per horsepower lower. However, in addition to lower emissions electronic control of fuel injection also provide even greater fuel economy and the diesel Volkswagon Golf was even more liquid fuel economic than the early gas/electric vehicles.

At the moment engine manufacturers appear to be keeping fairly tight control of their fuel management electronics but if this stuff goes the route of all other electronics equipment the day will come when one goes to the auto shop and picks up a fuel computer, and other electronic fuel system components, off a shelf with after market parts from a number of sources. When this day comes we will all probably carry a couple of spares in the box along with the spare v belts and water pump impellers.

Sounds like a utopia that the industry is not working toward. So far engine and vehicle owners have been held hostage to expensive diagnostic and spare parts. And it seems to be all about profiteering. If one considers the advanced graphics dashboard controls on vehicles. Why can this not be used to display diagnostics instead of requiring costly diagnostic equipment? I think that everyone is familiar with people getting check engine lights, paying big fee to have the engine scanned, then finding out that the problem was that the gas cap was fitted loosely. This is customer abuse. When one is charged around $100 only to be told that the gas cap is loose. The industry has created many opportunities for customer abuse.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...On a modern yachts there are dozens of "computers" , one more in the engine doesn't really make much of a difference.

It makes a difference to me.

Unlike an automobile, when the boat stops you cannot just get out and walk. Our engine is a critical component, just behind our sailing rig, rudder and keel in criticality.

We have many installed computers on the boat but those critical systems are ones I cannot do without and do not have computers in them. Despite the advances in electronic technology, electronics still fail more than mechanical. For that reason I do not recommend or want common rail diesel engines for my boat.

I realize that there will come a time when I have no choice, for now I do.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It makes a difference to me.

Unlike an automobile, when the boat stops you cannot just get out and walk. Our engine is a critical component, just behind our sailing rig, rudder and keel in criticality.

We have many installed computers on the boat but those critical systems are ones I cannot do without and do not have computers in them. Despite the advances in electronic technology, electronics still fail more than mechanical. For that reason I do not recommend or want common rail diesel engines for my boat.

I realize that there will come a time when I have no choice, for now I do.

With ya on that. The commercial vessel that I've worked aboard modernized from old basic Detroit generators to new Kohler/John Deers. Of course they are nice new generators that start and run well. They self synchronize. Lots of great features. But the electronics are a can of worms for which many potential problems are not solvable by engineers at sea. Kohler will not even supply an analyzer if we did want to pay for it. These modern marvels can be very dangerous when they fail, as the crew can do nothing to solve many problems that can arise. The vessel cold black out and quickly drift into danger. Steering is electrically powered. Main engine start/control air is electrically powered. Deck machinery is electrical. This situation is an accident waiting to happen.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

Your power windows don't have a safety that stops it from crushing kid's fingers, your power locks don't automatically lock/unlock with speed, your cruise control and daytime running lights do have control modules. Built in backup cameras do things like lower the radio volume and adjust the mirrors.

The manufacturers put these in because the buyers want them.

Power window safety can be controlled locally at the window itself. Why do power locks require computer control? The driver and passengers are capable of operating door locks themselves. I've never opened a door while driving, and do not plan to. The repeated operation that these systems cause is certain to wear out lock mechanisms well before their normal life cycle. I do not need a computer to turn my lights on and off. I am capable to decide when I need lights and to operate them with a manual switch. In fact, my DRL module caught fire in my truck. Just found it in time before the entire vehicle went up in flames. As a quick solution, I replaced it with one from a junk yard. But I will be tracing the circuits and deleting it. Cruise control is non essential equipment that I do not need. Without use of throttle control, I think that drivers can become drowsy, and cruise control is a danger. I have no back up camera. It is only another gadget that can fail. I find that dashboard video screens are a distraction that can cause accidents. I am capable of controlling my radio manually. Vehicle purchasers are being sold a bill of goods.

[wingssail]

My car is entirely controlled by computer and while I love that car (2002 luxury model) it is so electronically controlled and linked, and so old that parts are no longer available, that I think it is likely that a future electronic failure will be unfixable and could force an otherwise perfect car to be scrapped.

It almost already happened. The power seat module is interconnected with the computer system and when the seats failed the car could not be operated. Further the power seat system could not even be removed because it could not be moved to allow the bolts to be exposed, AND replacement parts are no longer available anyhow! Well I got it out (barely) and found a used module 3000 miles away in a wrecking yard and it is all fixed now. I'm happy but it is only a matter of time.

Boats could be headed this direction. In the late 90's Jim Clark's remarkable new sailboat, the 155-foot computer controlled Hyperion, was be christened after many software related delays but at the last moment he still had to debug some of the software that was written for the boat. Even then the problems continued. They set out to cross the Atlantic with a team of programmers on board working at desks in a computer room below yet even with these experts on board the system failed time after time and the problems prevented them from running engines on board or controlling the sails.

Well things are better now but I am still skeptical of too much electronic control on my boat.