"critical" lead level in transmission fluid for boat under contract

[flyingfin]

And you were assuming a 20 year old V-drive would be in perfect condition?
Dont worry about a lab error or re-test, consult a local yard to see how much it will cost you to remove / replace that fully depreciated V-drive. Oh, and since you may need to remove the engine to do that, you might as well rebuild the engine while you have it out of the boat..$$$$$$

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

We're definitely in agreement on the value of a good survey, I am 100% behind getting them.



Our bad deal was...educational...with a buyer doing vague hand waving about huge amounts of money based on a survey with massive technical inaccuracies and loads of speculation and no specific lists of items to fix. Literal mistakes like miscounting the number of life rafts clouded the one issue that we fixed after the deal broke. If you read the whole article you know what I'm talking about, I don't need to re-write it here.

You should bring that boat to So Cal. A Hallberg 53' wouldn't last ten minutes on the market here in almost any condition - survey be damned.

[Compass790]

Just wondering if anyone knows another source for lead in the velvet drive trans fluid other than bearing bronze? I know analysis said clutch but wasnt aware that they put lead in clutches but there is a lot I'm not aware of. Please educate me if you know about velvet drives. Cant see them putting it in trans fluid these days but have no idea about that either.

[niftyc]

Thanks, as a next step the temperature measurement does sound promising. I really appreciate all of the thoughts and reactions.

In case it helps, the surveyor reports that the transmission is a Twin Disc / MG 5062V with a gear ratio of 2.51 to 1.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

That' a tough one. For one thing oil analysis on engines are mostly relevant if you have a history of them for comparison. I dont know about transmissions.

It seems like odd indices to me... aren't most transmissions ball or roller bearings? So why lead or silicon? You might see lead from plain bearings... I doubt a tranny would have those except to shift lever shafts... ?

Is it possible this stuff was in the tranny fluid by the manufacturer... did the oil analysis company think this was an engine oil test not tranny oil?

I'd have to agree. I can't imagine silico- bronze bearings in a transmission other than possibly control linkage. I wouldn't worry about it other than a negotiation point to your advantage.

Get her home and have it retested.

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by Compass790

Just wondering if anyone knows another source for lead in the velvet drive trans fluid other than bearing bronze? I know analysis said clutch but wasnt aware that they put lead in clutches but there is a lot I'm not aware of. Please educate me if you know about velvet drives. Cant see them putting it in trans fluid these days but have no idea about that either.

Some of those gearboxes were equipped with optional oil coolers but usually when they are in continuous or workboat duty. But if it has an oil cooler then that could be a source of lead as well.

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I'd have to agree. I can't imagine silico- bronze bearings in a transmission other than possibly control linkage. I wouldn't worry about it other than a negotiation point to your advantage.

Get her home and have it retested.

Thrust bearings and if I remember correctly that's a steel casing. The case borings might be sleeved with plain bearings.

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by kenbo

I agree with Compass, lead is used in sleeve and thrust bearings and I bet that V-drive transmission has quite a few of both. Silicon is also used in bronze bearings but I'm confused why you didn't have a high copper result as well.

Bronze is mainly copper - so I'd suspect the transmission has one or more collapsing bearings.
Definitely a critical warning!!

[skipperpete]

I wonder if an oil additive was used at the last change. I’m not a supporter of these products and I can’t imagine Twindisc would recommend em either but for better or worse... they exist for transmissions as well as engines and seem to contain all manner of metals and chemicals. Lead is used in the solder used on.... some.... oil coolers but I think the Twindisc coolers are higher pressure and may be silver brazed core.

[Mike Banks]

I would suspect the oil has an additive to stop a worn transmission slipping. Such additives contain lead--or some of them do. They get added to new transmission fluids.

This, or some lead-containing equivalent, could be the culprit.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...00330/10002/-1

[mvweebles]

Good article from Steve D'Antonio on the topic (a Google search will find others)

https://www.oceannavigator.com/oil-a...isinterpreted/

OP: comments you have received are all over the map and should be a clue that there is no easy answer. I doubt heat increase could be measured and detected so while a worn bearing undoubtedly produces elevated heat, you won't know it. This would likely create a false negative.

V-Drives are often horribly buried and thus poorly maintained. Having only 4 hours on the transmission oil and a failed oil analysis could be a coincidence but likely is not. Transmission fluid is not changed frequently, especially on a v-drive. There's probably a reason the seller did this just prior to listing the boat for sale.

Good luck. Please update on outcome.

Peter

[niftyc]

Thanks again for all of this. I just joined boatdiesels and spent the morning digging out discussions of fluid analysis reports from Twin Discs.

There are discussions of fluid reports in general and a few specific twin disc reports of high lead and no other high values. Things said by mechanics in that forum:

• there is no lead in the Twin Disc other than the clutch
• lead in the fluid is normal due to clutch wear
• there is a strainer that some mechanics don't clean, this can cause high numbers after an oil change
• a test on 4 hours of engine time is not reliable
• fluid analysis on boats that have been sitting for a while are not reliable

I'm now wondering about this "critical" label -- other posters were concerned about lead values at ~1000, 400, and 100. Reply was: with no other symptoms just change the fluid and see if the values go down. A mechanic looked at his last 4 twin disc fluid reports for a comparison and found lead around 100 in each for transmissions without problems. (Recall my report is 32.) But these other reports are not the exact model number and I'm not sure how much that matters.

As an ignoramus on this I'm just passing things along -- I have little ability to judge this stuff. But it sounds to me like my next step is to call Twin Disc, try to get an average value from an oil analysis lab / figure out why this is "critical," and see what an experienced field mechanic thinks about this. So I'll do some work on the phone Monday morning. As always I welcome any thoughts!

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by niftyc

Thanks again for all of this. I just joined boatdiesels and spent the morning digging out discussions of fluid analysis reports from Twin Discs.

There are discussions of fluid reports in general and a few specific twin disc reports of high lead and no other high values. Things said by mechanics in that forum:

• there is no lead in the Twin Disc other than the clutch
• lead in the fluid is normal due to clutch wear
• there is a strainer that some mechanics don't clean, this can cause high numbers after an oil change
• a test on 4 hours of engine time is not reliable
• fluid analysis on boats that have been sitting for a while are not reliable

I'm now wondering about this "critical" label -- other posters were concerned about lead values at ~1000, 400, and 100. Reply was: with no other symptoms just change the fluid and see if the values go down. A mechanic looked at his last 4 twin disc fluid reports for a comparison and found lead around 100 in each for transmissions without problems. (Recall my report is 32.) But these other reports are not the exact model number and I'm not sure how much that matters.

As an ignoramus on this I'm just passing things along -- I have little ability to judge this stuff. But it sounds to me like my next step is to call Twin Disc, try to get an average value from an oil analysis lab / figure out why this is "critical," and see what an experienced field mechanic thinks about this. So I'll do some work on the phone Monday morning. As always I welcome any thoughts!

Great info. Thanks for digging it out and sharing. I would guess you must make a decision soon.
I will still contend the test data/values are valid. Probably too many variables to make an assessment of that data (the science/art) to tell what's going on w/o taking it apart.

Not a stretch here, but if the new fluid is showing relatively high numbers for an extremely high dilution of the left over or residual old fluid that would be of concern. This would mean the old oil was significantly higher for lead and other metals. Clearly there is wear, just how much?
I don't think we were ever given this info, but how many hours are on the motor? What would be the normal life expectancy for the clutch in this particular trans? Knowing the general clutch life vs. # hrs should give you an good idea if a new clutch is in your near future or not.

We are just bystanders in your predicament, you are the one forking out the cash. Good luck in your tough decision.

[Compass790]

Thanks for posting back in a comprehensive manner.

Apologies for sending you down the wrong path in my guess that the lead came from bearings. Sounds like you need a twin disc tranny expert to weigh in at this point so you are going down exactly the right path. I'd find out how much a clutch replacement will set you back as well as enquiring about the delivery voyage length/risk. With no sign of slippage my guess is worth a shot doing delivery voyage but we know how my last guess went. lol

I hope you keep posting, following with interest.

[roryboy]

[QUOTE= Apologies for sending you down the wrong path in my guess that the lead came from bearings. .[/QUOTE]

This is what happens when people ask for help with equipment and don't also post what that equipment is.