Electric Power a sobering story

[paul2884]

I assume Ocean Volt sold this as a replacement for the old derv engine. The old engine presumably lasted for several decades, the "replacement" didn’t last very well in the same location in the same conditions.

Perhaps it should not be sold as a “replacement” but sold as an alternative IF you can ensure the environment it is going to be installed in is dry/well-ventilated etc. it is not always a replacement for a diesel engine.

As for paying for an inspection from the manufacturers to guarantee the installation, sounds like it might be just an extra charge for the motor and not a real inspection!

[volksbar]

In Oceanvolts response to the initially cited article in this thread - they responded below the article that the price for their Oceanvolt electry system was not 21000 but 4911 pounds. Furthermore that battery costs were unclear and the total encompasses components unrelated to their system.

The article further stated that a sea-trial and inspection was made "for the warranty by the manufacturer". But the article it did not specify whether this sea trial was performed by Oceanvolt or the boat-yard doing the installation.

Likely the latter. As Oceanvolt likely would not fly out their few engineers to every location world wide where new OV engines are installed. For sure they did not come in person to check our installation initially.

As this might be relevant for this case, please allow to add the following related experience

Years ago we installed an early version of the water-cooled 30kw oceanvolt system (back then the only water-cooled direct drive system with 30kw with a low voltage system 48v. Back then only Torqueedo offered even more power but at far higher voltage. Meanwhile there should be more options to choose from).

The build-quality of the water cooled ocean volt blocks was and is very good. Maintainance after more than 7yrs and substantial usage? One repair of a raw water circulation pump. One small electric cable. Bearable.

Installation is above a wet bilge, with water entering by design drop by drop via the cutlass bearings into the bilge. As long as the bilge pump works, the motor wont drown. Thereby the bilge pump is part of a regular inspection. But this was also needed before when still running a combustion engine.

One problem was back then, and might still be in many places today - that boatyards mostly are specialized on Diesel. Or have very limited experience with electric drives. In our case, we had to do the installation without external support, as no boat yard was eager to enter this small niche market.

I mention this as this is directly related to our experience with the Oceanvolt service. It was more than a surprise. We have not encountered such service with any other company in any other working area.

During the installation period we were in a different time zone. Their service team would always take their time to talk and walk and analyse challenges together with us in extended phone talks. Some of those talks lasted to 10 p.m. their local time, more than once!

At least we have not experienced such loyal help and service with other companies. Usually one is lucky to reach a knowledgable person up to 5pm local time. (we could not pass tips to the service engineers over the phone, but they would have been more than deserved).

Up to now we have not regreted to buy an initially only slightly more expensive Finish solution. It paid off long time ago - and we dont get a kick back for saying so.

Of course one can always argue, if it is worth to go electric. That depends on individual user needs. If a marine diesel serves one's purpose - most diesels are robust and remain an efficient and elegant solution. Stay with it!

But if for whatever reason you want or have to switch to electric -
we have seen many more e-motor installations since. Many use belt drives. And are not direct drives. Belt drives add substantially to noise production. Often new users are therefore disappointed about the mechanical noise.

Taking this case as a small learning opportunity: it seems to be beneficial to shop for an encapsulated solution, and not an air-cooled belt drive solution. Could be of any manufacturer that has earned a reputation by now.

Just adding this lengthy post - as different from many negative interpretations based on the initial article of this thread - according to our experience, Oceanvolt is far from deserving a bashing and remains one of those top quality and good service providers.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well I know dozen bad ones also electric factory oem systems that suck, actually nearly all of them since recently for bluewater.
False promises about regen, ranges, operations...
And that for the quadruple a reliable diesel system would cost.

A hybrid system also working with saildrives standardized and build in big quantities that you can also retrofit is the way to go together with a bigger dual use house/propulsion battery.
The electric drive part is meant to motor in/out of marinas or anchor spots but not for distance or for easy propulsion when diesel runs in generator mode.

Important to remember that EP, including hybrid, is NOT about saving money. Very few installations are done for less than the cost of a comparable diesel (maybe for less than the diesel that would have been put in -- but not a diesel comparable to the motor that was put in. i.e., if the motor can push the boat at 4 kts in calm water, a diesel that maxes out at 4 kts in calm water, not the more typical engine that can push at 6kts with a bit of headwind). And as soon as you want range, it's game over. HOWEVER, if you are looking to get a small boat in and out of port, maybe a 5 mile range, then you can build a cost-effective system that doesn't compromise (ie, you can motor out at 5-6 kts, just like you would under engine).


Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. All the expense of a diesel, and all the expense of EP. I don't think anybody actually thinks hybrid is any sort of a net cost saver. Unlike cars, where the math (and the annual miles driven) make hybrid a very proven technology. MANY people, especially candidates for an electric-ish system, have annual fuel consumption well under 100 gallons. At $5/gallon, that's $500/year. Assume you pay zero for electric (most places if you are cruising, it's $2-$4/ft to tie up, and an extra $5 if you want electric), that's a maximum savings of $500/year. That takes a LONG time to recover the cost of a hybrid installation!


EP, including hybrid, is about potentially helping the environment (the jury is out on boats, because the lifetime fuel consumption is so very low compared to cars -- but the environmental impact of building it is the same), about getting rid of the dirty smelly diesel (not my boat, but others may have dirty smell diesels), and the joy of motoring silently. Some say the "instant on" is a benefit, but I can go from cold iron to full throttle in about 5 seconds (not good for the engine, sure, but if I don't have 60 seconds to spare I can do it in 5 seconds) -- and if I really need that much power that fast, I've got about 10 times what the EP can provide.

[DShant]

I'm with RonaldL and a few others on this one. It looks highly suspicious to me that there are several metal components that look fine and only the motor and chain or belt housing looks terrible. Although the terminals on the ceramic block look bad too which is confusing. I still doubt that much water got in here as this is higher than the sole and the furniture etc looks fine.



Also I have seen and owned many an aluminum boat that did fine with salt water. So I am guessing some other galvanic or generally electrical problem. It is possible they used poor quality aluminum but that seems too easy. There are lots of sealed explosion proof motors around too which would be fine for this location to protect the innards. I would be leery of putting that motor anywhere in a boat with the open sides.

The company's protestations about not locating it in an engine room are ridiculous of course.

As to whether it is a viable technology, Feadship who are not idiots have installed some hybrid systems on their super yachts and I am betting the technology will trickle down sooner or later and become a standard.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by DShant

As to whether it is a viable technology, Feadship who are not idiots have installed some hybrid systems on their super yachts and I am betting the technology will trickle down sooner or later and become a standard.

I think this is more "pat on the back" technology. All of the super yachts that I know of run their generators 24/7. So yes having slightly "greener" propulsion is good for marketing although I doubt there are overall benefits to the environment.

[Phil_Fr17]

Corrosion typical of an air-cooled motor installed in a closed enclosure. The small amount of seawater or salt spray that enters transforms this motor cocoon into a salt spray oven, leading to corrosion and premature wear as a result of motor operation, i.e. temperature rise and heat activation of the corrosive properties of salt.


This is typical of salt spray testing in industry against corrosion protection.


In this case, the best choice would have been to ventilate to avoid this confinement, not forgetting proper preventive maintenance.


Using a belt is not the right solution either, as it generates even more heat; a direct drive is much better in terms of noise, wear and energy efficiency. A watercooled motor too...


This installation is a typical example of what not to do, and as always, the one we point the finger at when we say that electric on board is no good on a boat, a bit like the lithium batteries in telephones at one time, which led to a general mistrust of lithium...

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Phil_Fr17

not forgetting proper preventive maintenance.

You, and others, and OceanVolt, have brought this up several times. It's easy to say, but it doesn't compute in my book. I'm not at all sure that "maintenance" would have done a single thing (except maybe foretell of impending doom). What kind of "maintenance" was recommended by the manufacturer or even common sense?
* Wipe down the outside of the motor weekly? Perhaps with an oil-dampened rag? This could very well have kept the surface shiny, but the motor didn't die because of a corroded shell.
* Lubricate bearings? Is that what it died of? Froze up on bearings? If so, replace the bearings and go back to sea.
* Wash down weekly with fresh water? This is recommended for mechanical things, my roller furler for example (uh... guilty as charged.....). Electrical stuff hates water when powered up, but when disconnected it is just inert metal and washes nicely (my first computer on my desk at work, ca 1992, came to me from the disposal yard after it got flooded by a roof leak -- I took it home, took it apart, washed all the circuit boars with Dawn and a toothbrush, put it back together, and it worked fine!). Perhaps this might actually be helpful.
* Put No-Ox-Id on the wire terminals? Again, it would have kept the wire connections in good shape, but that's not what killed it.


Maintenance is a good thing. But some maintenance just lets you know the end is near, and does nothing to forestall it. Like periodically looking at your brake pads -- it doesn't make them last longer, but you can replace them before they fail.



Anybody have any suggestions on "maintenance" that would have kept this motor going for another decade?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Important to remember that EP, including hybrid, is NOT about saving money. Very few installations are done for less than the cost of a comparable diesel (maybe for less than the diesel that would have been put in -- but not a diesel comparable to the motor that was put in. i.e., if the motor can push the boat at 4 kts in calm water, a diesel that maxes out at 4 kts in calm water, not the more typical engine that can push at 6kts with a bit of headwind). And as soon as you want range, it's game over. HOWEVER, if you are looking to get a small boat in and out of port, maybe a 5 mile range, then you can build a cost-effective system that doesn't compromise (ie, you can motor out at 5-6 kts, just like you would under engine).


Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. All the expense of a diesel, and all the expense of EP. I don't think anybody actually thinks hybrid is any sort of a net cost saver. Unlike cars, where the math (and the annual miles driven) make hybrid a very proven technology. MANY people, especially candidates for an electric-ish system, have annual fuel consumption well under 100 gallons. At $5/gallon, that's $500/year. Assume you pay zero for electric (most places if you are cruising, it's $2-$4/ft to tie up, and an extra $5 if you want electric), that's a maximum savings of $500/year. That takes a LONG time to recover the cost of a hybrid installation!


EP, including hybrid, is about potentially helping the environment (the jury is out on boats, because the lifetime fuel consumption is so very low compared to cars -- but the environmental impact of building it is the same), about getting rid of the dirty smelly diesel (not my boat, but others may have dirty smell diesels), and the joy of motoring silently. Some say the "instant on" is a benefit, but I can go from cold iron to full throttle in about 5 seconds (not good for the engine, sure, but if I don't have 60 seconds to spare I can do it in 5 seconds) -- and if I really need that much power that fast, I've got about 10 times what the EP can provide.

I agree with a lot you are saying.
It's the same as with EVs:
1)small cars or boats: yes electric as very small power needs and savings in maintenance pays the install. Thats where it make sense with cars and boats.
2) full electric in bigger boats: well even not for the environment if you take the batteries into the total environmental balance, again same as cars. A 530d BMW overall has a smaller impact then a Tesla model S, you need to drive 300000km with 100% renewable energy to get the real break even, average km of a car in its lifespan is 240tkm. Same with boats...no exhaust coming out doesn't mean the whole solution is environmentally better.

3)hybrid: true not a cost saver but for bluewater the welcomed backups. it's also a space saver as in one compact piece a diesel engine, a generator, an electric propulsion and eg for cats one side hybrid the other electric=less maintenance.
It's also range extension as additionally to diesel you have electric recharging from solar and sailing. It's the small but constant recuperation on top when sailing
Again the e-propulsion motor is small as add on so less costs and requirements. But yes at the moment to expensive but for half the costs and if you add big beefy alternator incl. Install it's not that far off.
Hybrid means also saving environment as I am not polluting populated areas or bays but when out at the ocean I use what's still most environmentally friendly for distance, a diesel. That was and is the real concept of an hybrid car too...don't make pollution in the huge mega cities where it's to dense populated that already that causes CO2 smog but people need to still move and outside I use the most environmentally friend combustion motor. That only works if the batteries for hybrid are small so by definition not made for range and distance. And yes for a cat till 44, light 48 ft cat I bet that a small 3cylinder hybrid diesel in one hull and emotor in the other hull driven by generator of the diesel is the best real overall environmental friendly solution, not a full e propulsion one.
Just the costs need to go down for it and here volume, volume, volume is needed. And with bluewater boats a dual house and propulsion bank for hybrid that uses the often heavly oversized reserves from house use with EP as additional range if really needed on passage and on the other side on anchor you can use the propulsion side for house too in a bad weather weak wher solar didn't harvest much and use diesel in emergency. It's the combo of all these points that makes an hybrid a very good solution for bluewater boats and our environment.
Not ideology but smart thinking on the total picture and real solutions

[sinnerman]

I personally am not a fan of the electric drives. I prefer a simple diesel.

Looked at one boat that was visiting our marina which had removed the diesel and installed an electric drive motor in its place.

They had travelled from Lousiana to Texas on the electric drive. To charge the batteries they utilized a Honda electric generator they had strapped down on the foredeck (ie. on the bow).

Assuming that they were driving the boat with the pointy end pointed in the direction of travel ,and anchoring it from there as well when stopped, then all of that wonderful generator exhaust would be inhaled by anyone situated aft.

Not wise

My two cents..

cheers

[Vinny Barbarino]

Did they not have sails?

[sinnerman]

No

They had standing rigging problems.

Brought the boat t our marina to have the mast dropped and the rigging replaced.

cheers

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

You, and others, and OceanVolt, have brought this up several times. It's easy to say, but it doesn't compute in my book. I'm not at all sure that "maintenance" would have done a single thing (except maybe foretell of impending doom). What kind of "maintenance" was recommended by the manufacturer or even common sense?
* Wipe down the outside of the motor weekly? Perhaps with an oil-dampened rag? This could very well have kept the surface shiny, but the motor didn't die because of a corroded shell.
* Lubricate bearings? Is that what it died of? Froze up on bearings? If so, replace the bearings and go back to sea.
* Wash down weekly with fresh water? This is recommended for mechanical things, my roller furler for example (uh... guilty as charged.....). Electrical stuff hates water when powered up, but when disconnected it is just inert metal and washes nicely (my first computer on my desk at work, ca 1992, came to me from the disposal yard after it got flooded by a roof leak -- I took it home, took it apart, washed all the circuit boars with Dawn and a toothbrush, put it back together, and it worked fine!). Perhaps this might actually be helpful.
* Put No-Ox-Id on the wire terminals? Again, it would have kept the wire connections in good shape, but that's not what killed it.


Maintenance is a good thing. But some maintenance just lets you know the end is near, and does nothing to forestall it. Like periodically looking at your brake pads -- it doesn't make them last longer, but you can replace them before they fail.



Anybody have any suggestions on "maintenance" that would have kept this motor going for another decade?

No maintenance would have saved that motor. That’s the wrong motor in the wrong place…

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Just read an article about a conversion to electric and back to diesel again.


Two things stood out; corrosion due to damp location and regen not available under 6 knots.


https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/why-chang...disaster-88014

So a story of a company not warranting their product for the installation expected and known. Kind of standard in the marine world.

[senormechanico]

Torqueedo has a nice looking system for 1200 rpm shaft speed, but the smallest system is for 40 hp.

At 284 kilograms weight and 352 volt battery to replace an 18 hp diesel, it's a serious no go for me.


https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/pr...M-3301-00.html

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Torqueedo has a nice looking system for 1200 rpm shaft speed, but the smallest system is for 40 hp.

At 284 kilograms weight and 352 volt battery to replace an 18 hp diesel, it's a serious no go for me.


https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/pr...M-3301-00.html

Yep absolutely noGo.
And best if that's under the bed oder below cockpit and you are the whole time roasted in the electromagnetic field of 352V with 50A when this emotor is running.
It's like making party 24/7 in an gigantic MRT, perfectly healthy...ironic off