Ethanol in fuel

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by ShipOfFools

Hey guys, i ended up buying E10 octane 93 from BP because i could not find a non-ethanol fuel station close to brooklyn, NY so i figured why bother. I then called a local marina to see what they advised on marine fuel and if that was any different than car fuel, they told me that ethanol was added to fuel as either a federal or state law in the usa or NY state because of emissions standards? i was quite surprised given then complaints ive seen about ethanol on u tube and this forum.

Been that way for a few decades now... Not completely mandatory in some states, mostly mandatory in others

-Chris

[transmitterdan]

I believe aviation gas has no ethanol? Try a shell station at your local municipal airport.

[FPNC]

Under the "Renuable Fuel Standard" that Bush signed into law in 2007. Ethanol fuel consumption became a requirement. Required ethanol fuel usage quantity was calculated at a state level. The state had to meet the level as a total but this meant it did not require ethanol be in all motor fuels.

Seperately, due to higher air polution areas of the USA, certain parts of the country are required by the EPA to use ethanol in all gasoline motor fuels. Particularly in the winter.

I doubt you will find automotive gasoline in NYC that does not have ethanol in it.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I believe aviation gas has no ethanol? Try a shell station at your local municipal airport.

That would be 100 LL, which is lead containing gasoline. It is very different than regular gasoline and I don’t know how well it mixes with oil, but for four strokes it seems to do very well. I put a four stroke Honda on a folding Dahon to carry in my airplane and ran it on Avgas. It seemed to do very well, and Avgas has a very long shelf life, as in years, not weeks.
It is illegal to sell it for anything but an airplane, but I believe it is so very rarely done, nobody cares, very often at airports there are self service pumps now too.

[sagablu]

Well, you can always use this solution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onCG7mIprfE

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by ShipOfFools

Hey guys, i ended up buying E10 octane 93 from BP because i could not find a non-ethanol fuel station close to brooklyn, NY so i figured why bother. I then called a local marina to see what they advised on marine fuel and if that was any different than car fuel, they told me that ethanol was added to fuel as either a federal or state law in the usa or NY state because of emissions standards? i was quite surprised given then complaints ive seen about ethanol on u tube and this forum.

It is added for Federal or State standards. But non ethanol can be sold for certain purposes, like boat, farms, non road things. Depending on the state.
Here's a pages long list of stations with non ethanol fuel in New York. Took me 5 seconds to find it: https://www.pure-gas.org/?stateprov=NY

[a64pilot]

You can test for ETH by adding a measured amount of water to gasoline in a graduated cylinder, shaking it up and seeing if the water level increases, if it does then the gas contains ETH, but do not try to remove ETH by water to use the fuel, reason is you are loading the fuel with water, fuel will absorb water to come out of suspension later, and you don’t remove all of the ETH, and finally what are you going to do with this poisonous water?

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by FPNC

"Copacabana"

Thanks for the reality check from Brazil. People in USA like to demonize ethanol in fuel.

Yeap. There is lots of BS from the time the Big Three were reluctant to change.

It is interesting to hear an auto maker (or outboard) maker in the US say bad things about ethanol when similar engines (with only minor changes) run perfectly with E25 in Brazil. Part of the story may be that one key invention that let the car find out the exact content of ethanol without using any extra sensors was developed not in Detroit but in Brazil.

Before cars were made to the same spec in Argentina and Brazil, Argentine holidaymakers who drove to Southern Brazil would have to make a pit stop to replace rubber parts that would degrade in contact with ethanol-containing fuel. By the time they reached Santa Catarina the car was running E20 or whatever without a problem!

[Lake-Effect]

I'm on board with having ethanol in most gas - autos and trucks especially. The original source of ethanol was supposed to be from organic waste, spoiled food etc. But the subsidation of food (corn) for ethanol has turned it into a boondoggle for US corn farmers that's hard to end.


I do prefer ethanol-free gas for outboards, especially sailboats where the outboard is only run infrequently and a tank may last half a season or more. I aso use it in a portable generator. I've had almost no engine or carb troubles for several years now.



Here in Toronto, Shell's top gas contains no ethanol, according to the info on the pumps.

[a64pilot]

Depending on the State you live in there may be little or no ETH in the fuel.
Some States mandate it, and it’s there, cause the law requires it. Other states don’t mandate it, and now it’s not likely there. Reason is for ETH to be cheaper than gasoline, it requires a price of gas to be well over $3, so if it’s not required, the fuel jobbers are often not adding ETH, cause they drive their profit down by doing so, and who would do that?
A clue as to what your State may require is the sticker on the gas pump, if it says MAY contain up to 10% Ethanol, well then it’s likely it doesn’t. Often you need to check with the water test.
For whatever it’s worth many, many small airplanes have autogas STC’s which allow them to burn car gas, but any amount of ethanol is not allowed, it must be ethanol free gasoline, so many test with water and a graduated cylinder, or even a Mason jar will work.

Seems only seven States mandate ETH in fuel
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/0...u-might-think/

[rbk]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

RBK, that's just not true. Brazil is not clear cutting the Amazon to plant corn. The deforestation has been for cattle farming for the most part. All ethanol in Brazil comes from sugarcane and most is produced in the southeast region, mainly the state of São Paulo. Ethanol doesn't make sense in a lot of countries, but it does in Brazil, and for a number of reasons. First, sugarcane is very efficient for ethanol production, unlike corn. Brazil also has an excess of arable land (they are not transforming food into fuel), and the climate allows for 2 crops a year on sugarcane land (sugarcane and then another crop). Just a side note, Brazil actually has some of the best and strictest environmental laws in the world, which work quite well in the country- except the Amazon. The problem is the Amazon is so vast that it's hard to enforce the environmental laws there with human on-site surveillance (you need to fly into big farms- the region isn't serviced by many roads). This is changing with satellite imaging and, in the near future, it will be hard to cut trees there without being punished by law. Finally, Brazil has been using ethanol both in gas and also 100% ethanol for cars at the pump for about 50 years. There just doesn't seem to be a problem with it harming engines here.

Of course, and it makes sense that the world second largest corn producer (Brazil) exports most of its product to the world largest corn producer (USA) for ethanol production, or maybe they just eat a lot of corn? Yes Brazil uses its sugar cane to produce ethanol for mainly local use and running pure ethanol isn’t an issue. What most people don’t understand is ethanol in gasoline replaces octane stabilizers like old school TEL. While running pure ethanol in an engine doesn’t harm it, when you have highly volitile gasoline with a stabilizer that slowly vanishes, now you have a fuel that’s highly prone to precombustion, and misfires. Ethanol by itself has an octane rating around 100, very stable and can be relied upon to fire when the engines ignition system says it should more so with today’s vehicles advanced timing capabilities. Gasoline with ethanol that has dissapayed may have a rating of say 75, so when your high compression engine (pretty much anything built after 1985) that gasoline can precombust when it hits a hot cylinder while the valves are still open; or mid stroke under low compression either way it’s not healthy for any engine. If Mazda’s new HCCI engine actually works and more manufactures developed the technology, you will either see pure ethanol being sold or gasoline with non-reactive stabilizers (E free).
As for the airable land in Brazil, yes, after almost 500 years of deforestation by various nations there is farmable land (a lot of which is now owned by US and Chinese corporations for corn and soybean production), while the natural grasslands are non arable and only suitable for cattle grazing. Maybe it’s coincidence that one of the worlds largest food producers has a very high rate of poverty and it’s people lack secure sources of food and yet it is one of, if not the top producer of food based ethanol in the world. Funny heh? Serfdom is alive and well but machines are replacing them (they complain less) hence the mass exodus from rural farmland to the urban and metropolis slums.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by rbk

Of course, and it makes sense that the world second largest corn producer (Brazil) exports most of its product to the world largest corn producer (USA) for ethanol production, or maybe they just eat a lot of corn?

Actually, Brazil has a long way to go to catch up to the US in corn- they are currently number 3.
https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=corn
The fact that Brazil exports corn to the US would seem to imply the US wants more corn, probably to produce ethanol and high-fructose corn syrup. Do a little research on the history of corn production in the US and the corn lobby to better understand how America was duped into the current dependence on high-fructose corn syrup (it’s in almost everything you eat there) and the ethanol program.


Yes Brazil uses its sugar cane to produce ethanol for mainly local use and running pure ethanol isn’t an issue. What most people don’t understand is ethanol in gasoline replaces octane stabilizers like old school TEL. While running pure ethanol in an engine doesn’t harm it, when you have highly volitile gasoline with a stabilizer that slowly vanishes, now you have a fuel that’s highly prone to precombustion, and misfires. Ethanol by itself has an octane rating around 100, very stable and can be relied upon to fire when the engines ignition system says it should more so with today’s vehicles advanced timing capabilities. Gasoline with ethanol that has dissapayed may have a rating of say 75, so when your high compression engine (pretty much anything built after 1985) that gasoline can precombust when it hits a hot cylinder while the valves are still open; or mid stroke under low compression either way it’s not healthy for any engine. If Mazda’s new HCCI engine actually works and more manufactures developed the technology, you will either see pure ethanol being sold or gasoline with non-reactive stabilizers (E free).

Brazil exports pure ethanol, but it’s mostly produced for local consumption. Virtually every car made in the last 20 years in Brazil has a flex engine that can run on gasoline, 100% ethanol or any combination of the two. When ethanol is 70% the price of gasoline or less, it pays to fill the tank with ethanol. The US could consider following suit and adapting their engines to run trouble-free with ethanol mixes like Brazil. It’s not rocket science.


As for the airable land in Brazil, yes, after almost 500 years of deforestation by various nations there is farmable land (a lot of which is now owned by US and Chinese corporations for corn and soybean production), while the natural grasslands are non arable and only suitable for cattle grazing. Maybe it’s coincidence that one of the worlds largest food producers has a very high rate of poverty and it’s people lack secure sources of food and yet it is one of, if not the top producer of food based ethanol in the world. Funny heh? Serfdom is alive and well but machines are replacing them (they complain less) hence the mass exodus from rural farmland to the urban and metropolis slums.

Brazil has more arable land than any other country due to climate, regular rainfall and its sheer size. While most countries have run out of arable land, Brazil has millions of hectares in reserve. In fact, the biggest problem in Brazil, in certain regions, is the underuse of the currently used farmland (cheap land and disinterested landowners results in poor production efficiency).

What grasslands are you referring to that are not suitable for agriculture? If you are referring to the massive high plateau savannah in Central Brazil, you should look again. It’s one of the soy bean production hubs. There is a semi-arid region just inland along the northeast coast that doesn’t have reliable rain for agriculture (other than family/subsistence farming). There is no problem of food security in Brazil. Agricultural exports are one of the pillars of the Brazilian economy. It’s big business. Unequal income distribution in Brazil is another issue, but there is no shortage of food (just money to buy it for many Brazilians). Also, the “mass exodus” was decades ago when poor Brazilians from the northeast went to cities like São Paulo to look for a better life. It isn’t really happening today.

Brazil’s ethanol program is actually pretty interesting. About 100 years ago, Brazil became worried about its dependence on imported oil (this is long before the discovery of the massive oil fields offshore) and, in the interest of national security, began the “Pró-Álcool” ethanol program to become self-sufficient in fuel. With the oil crisis in the 70s, Brazil really developed the program in earnest and, for the last 30 years or so, ethanol has been available at the pumps at gas stations. Today it is the fuel of choice given its lower price. As I said before, ethanol doesn’t make sense in a lot of countries (like the US probably), but it does in Brazil: available land for sugarcane (not corn) ethanol production, excellent climate for sugarcane, developed market and technology for ethanol etc. The sugar-ethanol industry is pretty interesting here and it is developing into a lot of other spin-off industries and technologies (including plastics!).

I hadn’t intended on giving such a long reply, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions about ethanol production and use, especially in the US.

[Copacabana]

RBK, I just noticed you're in Whitehorse!

At any rate, the following is interesting reading (although not really applicable to Canada).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-rethink-corn/

[a64pilot]

Coming from an agricultural background, I can tell you corn won’t go away or likely do anything except expand, reason is it’s a Government subsidized, big business. So long as those subsidies exist, it doesn’t have to be efficient or even make economic sense. The corn lobby is likely behind the requirement to blend gasoline with ETH.
Several years ago land that corn is grown on in Iowa and other corn producing States was selling for completely insane amounts, way beyond logic, sort of a gold rush mentality that I don’t understand.

Remove these subsidies and let the market determine prices, and a whole lot of businesses will fold.
I guess it’s the Agricultural equal of the housing market.

[rbk]

I think we're mostly all on the same page here either way. I agree running higher concentrations of ethanol has little consequence when engines are capable and yes most cars have been designed to burn some amount of E since about the 60's (E resistant rubbers etc). Most currently produced cars can and do run on high amounts of ethanol (E85/flexfuel etc) and have for a number of years. Its also somewhat subjective as to 'trouble free'. It would be interesting to see the numbers of car run on pure gas vs blended (not pure or high concentration E) I regularly get 400K and counting on vehicles run on E-free gas, where I know a lot of others who can barley scrape out 250K before an engine replacement is due, from worn valves and gaskets.

As for US corn consumption the amount turned into fuel is around 40% (10 for HFCS, ya that sh#ts gross) . I guess I should have said top corn exporter as China doesn't not export much if any of its corn production, so they do not appear on the OEC stats. Yes the central plateau is currently being used for soybean production (70% still used for cattle) and they are expanding northward each year at a rate of around 8000km2/year, and the main reason they can farm there is the 25 million plus tones of fertilizer and lime they have to add annually to the soil in order to allow more than a handful of successful crops to produce as the reclaimed rain forest is quickly depleted of nutrients. And as of late the soybean crops are being cycled with crops of corn for export most likely at the hands of Cargill (don't get me started). The affordability of food is food insecurity; If you're making 50 cents an hour and its costs $5 for a loaf of bread, that is a food shortage whether it is due to market manipulation through export, supply demand, doesn't matter; If companies are exporting food because they can make a higher profit to turn it into fuel and let the people who support their industry go hungry, somethings backwards. And while the percentage of urbanization has decreased, the numbers are still high. I dare say rural farmers/landowners getting forced out by multinational corporations? (This is happening EVERYWHERE.)
I believe it was a no brainier for Brazil to start E production in the early 1900's after the collapse of the sugar cane price mid 1800 and low prices for 80 plus years, the energy crisis in the 70's just pushed that point home and it was a win/win for producers with infrastructure in place.
To sumamrize, ethanol production has caused the price of certain commodities to increase as the fuel production uses much much higher quantities to produce fuel compared to food consumption making those food unattainable for some consumers. The world needs a clean source of renewable energy and Ethanol is not the be all end all answer we're looking for and is still a rather energy intensive fuel (growing, harvesting and distilling). For now some counties it does make sense (more so when used in high concentrations) and not at all in others.