Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

I should add that I think daily polishing is excessive.

I think polishing works better when the tank is agitated from sailing, especially in rough conditions, but many people have the view that once installed the system may as well be running even at anchor or in a marina.

The idea is to remove water, sludge and asphaltenes before this can provide an environment for diesel bug growth. It also works as a warning system if all is not well with your fuel.

If the system is simply filtering clean fuel that is fine. The filter will not need changing and the polishing pumps have a very long life so it costs nothing to run, especially when excess power is available from solar.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I think polishing works much better when the tank is agitated from sailing, especially in rough conditions, but many people have the view that once installed the system may as well be running even at anchor or in a marina.

The idea is to remove water, sludge and asphaltenes before this can provide an environment for diesel bug growth. It also works as a warning system if all is not well with your fuel.

If the system is simply filtering clean fuel that is fine. The filter will not need changing and the polishing pumps have a very long life so it costs nothing to run, especially when excess power is available from solar.

If that works for you, then cool.

[SV Allie Rose]

Now you all have got me thinking - maybe the easiest, and best solution, is to use the excessive P510MAM pump/filter/polisher to draw fuel from the tank and route to a day tank (such as the roto molded Moller 20 Gallon - 58"L X 6"W X 14.75"H) that I could mount in one of the cockpit lockers, and from there, route fuel through the system like I normally do (through the Racor 500 filters, and thereafter the spin on filter).

The one question I still have hope someone may have insight into is this: if I wanted to run the system in a closed loop, rather than to a day tank, could I splice into the 5/16" line that goes from the spin on filter BACK to the fuel tank? I presume that this line is there to allow excess fuel/air to go back to the tank to begin with. I would use a three way valve that would allow me to shut off flow in the direction of the spin on fuel filter if I ever needed to, and I suppose, with this set up, it may work as an emergency fuel delivery method too?

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose

Now you all have got me thinking - maybe the easiest, and best solution, is to use the excessive P510MAM pump/filter/polisher to draw fuel from the tank and route to a day tank (such as the roto molded Moller 20 Gallon - 58"L X 6"W X 14.75"H) that I could mount in one of the cockpit lockers, and from there, route fuel through the system like I normally do (through the Racor 500 filters, and thereafter the spin on filter).

The one question I still have hope someone may have insight into is this: if I wanted to run the system in a closed loop, rather than to a day tank, could I splice into the 5/16" line that goes from the spin on filter BACK to the fuel tank? I presume that this line is there to allow excess fuel/air to go back to the tank to begin with. I would use a three way valve that would allow me to shut off flow in the direction of the spin on fuel filter if I ever needed to, and I suppose, with this set up, it may work as an emergency fuel delivery method too?

No. You need separate supply and return lines. The Yanmar manual states this. Two reasons. Any air bubbles vent out the return line. The other reason if the fuel gets hot when compressed in the high pressure pump. A typical tank installation has the return line on the opposite side of the tank from the pick up tube. Hot fuel will be more prone to preignition, and also hot fuel does not lube as well by making the high oressure pump run hotter than designed.

[SV Allie Rose]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

No. You need separate supply and return lines. The Yanmar manual states this. Two reasons. Any air bubbles vent out the return line. The other reason if the fuel gets hot when compressed in the high pressure pump. A typical tank installation has the return line on the opposite side of the tank from the pick up tube. Hot fuel will be more prone to preignition, and also hot fuel does not lube as well by making the high oressure pump run hotter than designed.

What about this idea:

Could I what is currently the pick up/tank output hose, as the return hose for running the fuel polisher in a closed loop, and use a copper tube attached to 3/8" fuel line that I could stick directly into the fill cap that sits on top of the tank to pull fuel for either running the P510MAM in a closed loop, as well as when using the P510MAM to route fuel into a day tank?

I feel like there's got to be a good way to do this.

[noelex 77]

A day tank is a further system that helps supply clean fuel to the engine. It is quite common on cruising power boats that depend on fuel as their only source of propulsion.

It is arguably overkill for yachts, but is not expensive, so if you have the room it is worth considering. Normally the fuel supply and return are to the day tank.

[Scubaseas]

You could but why would you? Don't use copper. Use approved hose, stainless steel or cupronickel.

You do not need to polish fuel all the time. Once you get the tank clean the regular filters will take care of it, The way you want to do it you would still have basically three filters. if the polisher get clogged you won't be able to run it until you change it. .You would be better off with a dual primary filter where you can isolate the individual filters so you can change them without shutting the motor down. I'm not on my boat (it's 2267 miles away) or I'd take a picture for you. Example below. Do you have one or more fuel tanks? Capacity?

https://defender.com/en_us/racor-dua...lded-75500max2

[SV Allie Rose]

Here's what I've got - something very similar to what you just showed.

I just installed and cut holes for three vacuum gauges I picked up, still brand new and in the box, for $25 each. Lots of affluent people here in Charleston getting rid of things they can't figure out....

The plan for the vaccum gauges, as it relates specifically to the 500 series, is:

3/4" to 3/4" swivel fitting from the top of the 500 series filters (allow for easy removal without twisting the hose when needing to change elements - these swivel fittings will replace the T handles)
Followed by a 3/4" to 1/4" adapter
Followed by a 1/4" NPT to 1/4" Barb elbow adapter that is also shut off valve (purpose of shut off valve is so that way any fuel in the 2' of line that runs to the gauge doesn't drain out into the bilge when changing the filter).
Followed by 1/4" hosing to the racor fitting on the back of the pressure gauge.

I'm sure there's a way I could have ran the vac gauge to show only the working pressure reading oin whichever 500 series filter was in use, but I figured that since I had three of them, might as well do it that way.

As for the Racor P510MAM - that's the big question. I've got the $1k piece of metal, the adapter fittings, the water sensor, and the time this weekend to get it installed. The question is - what's the best method and way to do that.

My main goal would be to avoid tapping into the fuel tank - at least at this moment in time. Many other Rasmus owners have shared horor stories of sheering off bolts when trying to access their fuel tank, and the project taking significanlty longer than I'd like to spend. I sail very frequently, typically trying to go out when the weather is as bad as possible to build the skills necessary for the offshore sailing I plan to someday complete. I'd like to be able to run the system while under sail to take advantage of the slushy that is created when the fuel is violently shaken around in that manner.

So I'm open to your ideas. What should I do? And how/where would you splice it in, if at all? i've got plenty of adapters and three way valves ready to go.

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose

Here's what I've got - something very similar to what you just showed.

I just installed and cut holes for three vacuum gauges I picked up, still brand new and in the box, for $25 each. Lots of affluent people here in Charleston getting rid of things they can't figure out....

The plan for the vaccum gauges, as it relates specifically to the 500 series, is:

3/4" to 3/4" swivel fitting from the top of the 500 series filters (allow for easy removal without twisting the hose when needing to change elements - these swivel fittings will replace the T handles)
Followed by a 3/4" to 1/4" adapter
Followed by a 1/4" NPT to 1/4" Barb elbow adapter that is also shut off valve (purpose of shut off valve is so that way any fuel in the 2' of line that runs to the gauge doesn't drain out into the bilge when changing the filter).
Followed by 1/4" hosing to the racor fitting on the back of the pressure gauge.

I'm sure there's a way I could have ran the vac gauge to show only the working pressure reading oin whichever 500 series filter was in use, but I figured that since I had three of them, might as well do it that way.

As for the Racor P510MAM - that's the big question. I've got the $1k piece of metal, the adapter fittings, the water sensor, and the time this weekend to get it installed. The question is - what's the best method and way to do that.

My main goal would be to avoid tapping into the fuel tank - at least at this moment in time. Many other Rasmus owners have shared horor stories of sheering off bolts when trying to access their fuel tank, and the project taking significanlty longer than I'd like to spend. I sail very frequently, typically trying to go out when the weather is as bad as possible to build the skills necessary for the offshore sailing I plan to someday complete. I'd like to be able to run the system while under sail to take advantage of the slushy that is created when the fuel is violently shaken around in that manner.

So I'm open to your ideas. What should I do? And how/where would you splice it in, if at all? i've got plenty of adapters and three way valves ready to go.

Can't tell exactly what you have from the pictures.

You only need one vacuum gauge. It goes between the Racor 500 and the lift pump. or the filter to engine line.

If you want to have a polisher just tee it into the existing feed line and return line to the tank. So one goes in the fuel tank to filter line and one goes to the engine return to tank (this is the smaller hose or tubing) . Put a check valve in the polisher return to tank line and you can run the engine with or without running the polisher. The check valve stops air being sucked into the engine pump from the return line.

[SV Allie Rose]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

Can't tell exactly what you have from the pictures.

You only need one vacuum gauge. It goes between the Racor 500 and the lift pump. or the filter to engine line.

I love when I think I know what I'm doing and cut three holes in my boat just to find out I only needed one (or presumedly two, since I'd like to use one with the P510MAM).

Now I've got another project - finding a way to fill the third hole and selling the extra gauge.

[SV Allie Rose]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

Can't tell exactly what you have from the pictures.

Put a check valve in the polisher return to tank line and you can run the engine with or without running the polisher. The check valve stops air being sucked into the engine pump from the return line.

The return to tank line is 5/16", and the P510MAM recomends no smaller than 3/8" fuel line. Do you think that's too big of an issue? And would the check valve be on which side of the 3 way valve? The hose from the spin on filter to the three way valve, the polisher to the three way, or the three way to the tank?

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose

I love when I think I know what I'm doing and cut three holes in my boat just to find out I only needed one (or presumedly two, since I'd like to use one with the P510MAM).

Now I've got another project - finding a way to fill the third hole and selling the extra gauge.

Standard hole. Clock? Fuel gauge? Battery Monitor? Water tank Gauge? Black water tank gauge?

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose

The return to tank line is 5/16", and the P510MAM recomends no smaller than 3/8" fuel line. Do you think that's too big of an issue? And would the check valve be on which side of the 3 way valve? The hose from the spin on filter to the three way valve, the polisher to the three way, or the three way to the tank?

No idea if it will be a problem or not. Why do you need such a huge unit?

I'll draw you a picture but not right now. I do not know how you are plumbed now so impossible to tell you.

[SV Allie Rose]

I'll take a video and upload to youtube of how it's all plumbed tomorrow afternoon.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose

or presumedly two, since I'd like to use one with the P510MAM

Yes, one vacuum gauge on the engine supply is not ideal. A vacuum gauge on the fuel polish system is important. This will be the first filter to clog. If this filter clogs prematurely it provides an important warning that your fuel system is not as should be. If the polishing filter does not clog there is no reason for the engine filter to be clogged, as it is filtering much less fuel from the same source, but a second vacuum gauge on the engine supply provides added reassurance and can be useful for troubleshooting.

Unfortunately, diesel fuel does deteriorate, pick up water and sometimes grow bugs when in storage. A permanent polishing system is designed to be run frequently to eliminate these problems in the early stage.

Apparently in ideal conditions diesel bug can double in size every 20 minutes. Frequent filtration to remove the contamination and perhaps more importantly to remove the conditions favourable for growth (such as the presence of water) is beneficial in reducing the risk.