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GILow · 08-12-2015, 15:57

+1 for not removing the head. Not yet anyway.

When you say gritty gunk in the head, I assume you are talking on the oil movement side of the head, which would be consistent with overly long intervals between oil changes or frequent very short run times on the engine (with overly long intervals between oil changes). Or are you talking within the water cooling passages?

Either way, that picture of the radiator cap, though certainly ominous, would not have me pulling the head quite yet. I would be trying to get some cooling water in the engine, get the engine running, and look for evidence of exhaust gas blow through on the gaskets, usually apparent from oil in the cooling water and/or evidence of bubbles coming up through the point of the coolant cap, usually increasing with engine load. (Easy to put the engine in gear in the pen, or otherwise tied to something secure.)

Once you pull the head you are committed to some reasonable expense in parts and labour, that might not have been required if it was simply a gunked up cooling system that needs a good flush.

Matt

GILow · 08-12-2015, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timinbondi

Does anyone know what Mitsubishi engine it is based on?

I read somewhere that the smaller Sole engines were based on Mitsubishi tractor engines, but built in Spain I think. Can't find that page at the moment, but it was from somewhere credible from memory.

SeaSon · 08-12-2015, 17:13

If you haven't gotten the head off, put the bolts and nuts back on. Try the simple stuff first. The gunk in the coolent ports can come out with water or a flush later as discussed. Fill it, start it, look for leaks, check for water flow fresh and salt. See if it overheats on you. Try to determine if the issues are big or small so you can decide if you can fix the engine or should replace as your mechanic recommended.

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Timinbondi · 09-12-2015, 03:05

The gunk in the head is similar to the white stuff around the cap. Some of it is gritty and other bits are like a rusty gunk. So what is the best way to flush the head? I'm not sure of the state of the water pump, impeller or if the engine will actually start. I'm not actually sure anything the mechanic said was worth listening to as the heat exchanger doesn't actually seem to look too bad. The sea water side was actually pretty clean.

Can I pour in some radiator flush and let it sit for a while? Or some CLR or something else? Is it possible to pump it through without turning over the engine?

Thanks for the advice and apologies for all the novice questions.

GILow · 09-12-2015, 03:58

No need to apologise for being a novice. We all started there, the name of the game is getting you to the pro stage with the least number of mistakes or wasted $$$.

My take, and there will be other, equally or more valid than mine...

First, check the oil for signs of water. If there is water in the oil then all bets are off, either the engine was truly cooked, or you have disturbed the gasket enough to make it unlikely to be able to reuse it.

Assuming no oil, carefully tighten up the head bolts using the correct sequence and torque for the engine. if you cannot find the exact specifications for that engine it is usually safe to find the specs and sequence for a similar HP engine with the same number of cylinders. Or, if all else fails, guess the sequence, use really small torque increases, and aim for a maximum torque around 35 ft-lbs to be safe.

Reassemble the rest of the engine cooling system and fill it with plain old tap water.

Check the oil again. Still no water? Good.

Check the raw water supply line and seacock are good to go, leave the radiator/heat-exchanger cap off, and start the engine. Observe the radiator cap point with the engine idling, look for bubbles, usually a steady stream. The odd bubble may be nothing more than air pockets escaping from the block.

No air bubbles? Make sure the boat is secured, put the engine in gear and BRIEFLY bring it up to about 50% throttle. Look for bubbles again. Still no bubbles, then you've probably dodged a bullet, the gasket is ok, the head is still mostly straight. Shut the engine down before it or the exhaust gets too hot, and proceed with the standard cooling system checks.

Simple cooling system test procedure for my boat would be:

1. Coolant level in engine ok? (in your case we are assuming plain water coolant at this point, no additives yet.)

2. Raw water flow ok? Depends a bit on the engine when checking this bit. In my engine I know I should see regular pulses of water out the exhaust, each about a cup or two each, every two or three seconds. Other engines produce more or less, but the point is you should see water coming out the exhaust in most setups.

3. Let the engine start to warm and check that you can see the cooling water in the engine flowing through the heat exchanger. Depending on the setup there should be a fair bit of swirling activity visible immediately below the filler cap. If there is then the cooling pump is ok.

If all these tests passed ok, then I would start looking at flushing the cooling system with some kind of cleaning flush, starting with plain old water, maybe a bit of vinegar, look on the web for ideas, before throwing in some horribly expensive concoction that may or may not work. After flushing I would then drain some water from the engine and replace it with a good quality coolant additive and try again, 50% power in the pen and watch the temperature gauge(if fitted). If the temperature still gets too hot THEN I would look at pulling apart the heat exchanger and cleaning it (though if you have it off the engine already I guess you will have done that before you put it back on.)

I still think the mechanic may be right with his original suggestion, but it seems you are not afraid of getting your hands dirty so it does make sense to double check all this for yourself. You may well have a perfectly fine engine under there and if you do get it going again you will know it well enough to monitor it closely.

FWIW I had my engine conk in the shipping channel just last weekend. No wind, a very slight current, breakwater rocks either side of me. NOT a pleasant feeling. A quick check on the radio told me the next shipping movement was 15 minutes away, but that does not feel like a lot when you are faced with a 100 HP diesel that turns over and will not fire while drifting slowly towards a rocky breakwater. These experiences remind us of just how important the engine can be. I know plenty of people sail without engines but the point is they KNOW they don't have an engine. It is finding out you suddenly don't have an engine that is the real problem.

Anyway, happy tinkering, let us know how you go.

Matt

Timinbondi · 13-12-2015, 16:32

So this is the bill from the boatyard that resulted in them telling me the engine wasn't worth saving. I'm a bit disappointed to be charged $1000 for a service on a dud engine. Btw I got a quote from the distributor for a new heat exchanger and their price is $1300 rather than $3000 as quoted by the boat yard.

Slip and anti foul with 1.5 coats Altex No5 Blue anti foul $1,102.73 GST
O/E Excessive growth additional scraping/cleaning required $252.27 GST
Check fuel system, drain both fuel tanks and refill with new diesel $176.59 GST
Check and service skin fittings and repair skin blisters (approx 20) - Note:
All fittings are original, skin fittings and stern gland should be replaced over winter. $126.14 GST
Engine Service: change primary fuel and oil filters, clean and drain secondary fuel filter
and bleed system, change engine oil, check cooling system, run engine. $555.00 GST
Replace Shaft anode $38.63 GST
Parts and Materials:
3ltrs engine oil $30.00 GST
1x oil filter $30.91 GST
1x Fuel filter $21.78 GST
20 ltrs diesel fuel $25.45 GST
1x 1"' shaft anode $20.00 GST
W/S consumables: Oil disposal, rags, brushes, hose clamps etc. $18.18 GST

The pic below is how the heat exchanger looked when it came back to me. The freshwater side was completely dry. The cap was still rusted on and overflow valve completely blocked and I'm not sure how any coolant could have been put in the system.

$176 for draining the tanks. The tanks were almost empty.

GILow · 13-12-2015, 16:53

Well....

Some of those prices seem ok, a bit eye watering for someone who is used to doing it themselves, but not outrageous. Enough to make me ask myself again why I do all this work myself.

I only see $650 or thereabouts on the engine, I don't see any charge for coolant so I assume they opened the filler cap and saw the white mess and went "oh s--t!, cooked engine." By that stage they might well have already done the oil change and fuel system flush, so that's a hard one, one of those painful little moments with a boat where you wish things could have happened in a better order.

Still reckon $1300 on the heat exchanger is a big gamble, I would want to know a lot more about the engine before I spent that kind of money.

I don't want to sound like I am lecturing you, but that comment about the original skin fittings is a bit scary. I would be taking that pretty seriously. 20 blisters is probably not much of a concern, depending on how big they were. If they only charged $126 to repair them then they were pretty darn small I reckon, match head size. I would have expected to see a bill of around $500 or more for 20 blisters, even as small as a ten cent piece.

Ah... boats hey? :^)

Uncle Bob · 13-12-2015, 17:00

[QUOTE=Timinbondi;1986520]So this is the bill from the boatyard that resulted in them telling me the engine wasn't worth saving. I'm a bit disappointed to be charged $1000 for a service on a dud engine. Btw I got a quote from the distributor for a new heat exchanger and their price is $1300 rather than $3000 as quoted by the boat yard.

Slip and anti foul with 1.5 coats Altex No5 Blue anti foul $1,102.73 GST
O/E Excessive growth additional scraping/cleaning required $252.27 GST
Check fuel system, drain both fuel tanks and refill with new diesel $176.59 GST
Check and service skin fittings and repair skin blisters (approx 20) - Note:
All fittings are original, skin fittings and stern gland should be replaced over winter. $126.14 GST
Engine Service: change primary fuel and oil filters, clean and drain secondary fuel filter
and bleed system, change engine oil, check cooling system, run engine. $555.00 GST
Replace Shaft anode $38.63 GST
Parts and Materials:
3ltrs engine oil $30.00 GST
1x oil filter $30.91 GST
1x Fuel filter $21.78 GST
20 ltrs diesel fuel $25.45 GST
1x 1"' shaft anode $20.00 GST
W/S consumables: Oil disposal, rags, brushes, hose clamps etc. $18.18 GST

Hi, out of curiosity where is the boat yard located, pittwater by any chance?

Timinbondi · 13-12-2015, 20:10

Nope it's in Sydney Harbour. Someone above said more sharks in the marine industry in Sydney than ...

SeaSon · 23-02-2016, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timinbondi

Hi, I recently bought a Roberts 25 which has a Sole Mini-10 10HP diesel. I couldn't test the engine at the time I purchased it. It's now been to the mechanic and they advised the heat exchanger is heavily corroded due to the coolant not being changed for a very long time. They got it started but recommended not trying to fix the engine as a new heat exchanger would be about $3000 and by the time it was all installed and the engine serviced the cost would be about $6000 and therefore I'd be better off getting a new engine. They also mentioned the head and oil coolers might have suffered too. I'm wondering if I could fit some kind of cheap non-standard heat exchanger that is not expensive to test whether the engine may be worth saving? Otherwise if anyone has any ideas on getting an engine in the boat without significant expense? I've considered fitting an outboard but the mechanic advised I'd probably be disappointed.

SO, WHAT WAS THE FINAL OUTCOME ON THIS ENGINE? DID YOU FIX IT OR REPLACE IT?

Timinbondi · 24-02-2016, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaSon

SO, WHAT WAS THE FINAL OUTCOME ON THIS ENGINE? DID YOU FIX IT OR REPLACE IT?

I took the heat exchanger off and gave it to my friend who is currently repairing it. He cleaned it and sand blasted it. He is also fitting a new radiator cap and neck and is going to weld something to the exhaust flange where all that pitting is. Apparently it is serviceable but the amount of rust around where the residue was makes me wonder about the state of the engine where the same residue might be. So it's still a work in progress. I may have it the heat exchanger back on Sunday and can try starting the engine. Will keep you posted!