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Old 17-08-2020, 18:03   #1
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Help - crazy issue , no start

Ok forum, I'm stumped so let's see if anyone out there can help. To preface this , I've been a mechanic my whole life , so we need to jump to Level 3 of the troubleshooting !
Pearson 365 , westerbeke 40 - was running perfect . We noticed the instrument panel lights were glowing with key off , and also the tach had not been working previous ( which whatever) . Looking at the wiring diagram for the boat, made sense that the diodes went bad in the alternator - it had an arco one on there , so ordered it. Put it on , no lights anymore , started up - still no tach . So I decide, pull the gauges down and check the tach signal- as soon as I drop the instruments down - engine dies and won't restart.
Now, I screwed myself up here by digging into the fuel system( there is NO electronic shutoff anywhere) and spent too many hours bleeding , etc.
finally got it to start , ran for 1/2 hour or so - no tach still , but whatever . Sounded weird like load going on and off ( I was assuming still air bubbles somewhere) then all of a sudden- tach jumps on and ammeter too ( I quess never noticed that before) and it quit again.
So, today I spent all day focused on the fuel system ( replacing filters, lines, seals ) and bleeding more times than I can count - no air anywhere , still wouldn't start so I was ready to just say, get someone here that knows more than me about these things ( which really burns me, FYI) then I noticed the lights are glowing in the gauges again.
I also remembered that the PO told me the gauges were replaced ( but why ? I'm thinking now)
To my mind , there is no reason this engine shouldn't run .....but , my years of experience tell me if it didn't do it before you touched it and it does now - you caused it ... so here I am

Hopefully , some ideas out there .. help!
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Old 17-08-2020, 18:21   #2
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

I have the same engine and boat. I would guess you have a oil pressure switch wired to shut off an electric fuel pump in the case of low oil pressure. If no electric pump, you have air in the system. Do you have an electric pump? priming with the manual pump can be fruitless or at least take a long, long time.
I think the gauges are immaterial to the engine shutting down.
focus on the fuel supply-did you actually see diesel spurting out of a cracked injector or two? All my ignition circuit does is energize the gauges and the solenoid for the starter-once the engine is running I can turn the ignition off and the beast will keep running. Might not be good for the diodes though. but that won't stop it from running or starting for that matter (until the battery dies from not charging).
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Old 17-08-2020, 19:11   #3
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svsumurun View Post
Ok forum, I'm stumped so let's see if anyone out there can help. To preface this , I've been a mechanic my whole life , so we need to jump to Level 3 of the troubleshooting !
Pearson 365 , westerbeke 40 - was running perfect . We noticed the instrument panel lights were glowing with key off , and also the tach had not been working previous ( which whatever) . Looking at the wiring diagram for the boat, made sense that the diodes went bad in the alternator - it had an arco one on there , so ordered it. Put it on , no lights anymore , started up - still no tach . So I decide, pull the gauges down and check the tach signal- as soon as I drop the instruments down - engine dies and won't restart.
Now, I screwed myself up here by digging into the fuel system( there is NO electronic shutoff anywhere) and spent too many hours bleeding , etc.
finally got it to start , ran for 1/2 hour or so - no tach still , but whatever . Sounded weird like load going on and off ( I was assuming still air bubbles somewhere) then all of a sudden- tach jumps on and ammeter too ( I quess never noticed that before) and it quit again.
So, today I spent all day focused on the fuel system ( replacing filters, lines, seals ) and bleeding more times than I can count - no air anywhere , still wouldn't start so I was ready to just say, get someone here that knows more than me about these things ( which really burns me, FYI) then I noticed the lights are glowing in the gauges again.
I also remembered that the PO told me the gauges were replaced ( but why ? I'm thinking now)
To my mind , there is no reason this engine shouldn't run .....but , my years of experience tell me if it didn't do it before you touched it and it does now - you caused it ... so here I am

Hopefully , some ideas out there .. help!
Depends on which engine you have, and if there were any modifications to the electrical system.

Since messing with the gauge panel shuts the engine down, there's certainly an electrical problem; whether it's a short or ground problem is the question.

According the the manual,
https://www.westerbeke.com/technical...%20ed.%208.pdf

there are three options, but without knowing which you have, it is difficult to form an opinion as to what the problem might be.

In lieu of more information, the "glowing lights" sounds like a ground problem, the shutdown on pulling the panel down like a short that's operating a fuel solenoid. (but I'd bet the two are related) Did the engine crank but not start at that point, or was everything dead?

Checking and cleaning all electrical connections, tedious though it may be, can go a long way to solving these kind of problems.
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Old 17-08-2020, 19:39   #4
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

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Originally Posted by jpendoley View Post
I have the same engine and boat. I would guess you have a oil pressure switch wired to shut off an electric fuel pump in the case of low oil pressure. If no electric pump, you have air in the system. Do you have an electric pump? priming with the manual pump can be fruitless or at least take a long, long time.
I think the gauges are immaterial to the engine shutting down.
focus on the fuel supply-did you actually see diesel spurting out of a cracked injector or two? All my ignition circuit does is energize the gauges and the solenoid for the starter-once the engine is running I can turn the ignition off and the beast will keep running. Might not be good for the diodes though. but that won't stop it from running or starting for that matter (until the battery dies from not charging).
That's where I went too ... no electric pump . I've got more diesel in pig mats and on my skin then in the tank I think after days of bleeding, etc
According to the wiring diagram I have ( I was lucky - all the original paperwork was maintained - right down to the build sheet ) the fuel pressure is what excites the alternator - not oil , which is weird to me, but I guess whatever...
so to add another layer I put a small electric c pump in to help bleed ( after the raco filter) - today , it just made it worse - seemed to be cavitation .. so took it out and put in a primer bulb to help bleed it . No air bubbles now , still no start
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Old 17-08-2020, 19:42   #5
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

Jim - cranks forever ... and I get why your saying ground issue with the lights , but where is the power coming from ?
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Old 17-08-2020, 19:50   #6
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

Oops, missed "glowing with the key off". That suggests a positive side short, maybe in the key switch if you have one, or the start circuit if you don't.
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Old 18-08-2020, 02:31   #7
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

I take it this is a Westerbeke 40/Perkins 4-108? If so, I solved a similar problem (absent your electical issues-which I think are unrelated}. My fuel flow configuration is: fuel tank to racor to electric pump to on engine diaphragm pump to on engine secondary filter to hi pressure pump.

Engine is damn near impossible to bleed without the electric pump. Manual pump does not have much oomph and will suck air if you have a small leak ahead of the manual pump . The electric pump addition will allow you to prime instantly and diesel will positively gush out of the hi pressure pump bleed ports. Electric pump will also overcome a small air leak ahead of the manual pump. With out the electric pump, fuel will more or less dribble out and it can take forever to bleed.
If its a W40, it cranks and fuel gushes out of the hi pressure bleed ports with out bubbles it will start. The secondary fuel filter housing can also be a source of leaks if the filter o rings are installed incorrectly. But an electric pump should even overcome that problem (I think).

I would bleed with the electric pump and confirm free fuel flow absent bubbles thru the racor, thru the electric pump thru the diaphragm pump, thru the on engine filter and thru the high pressure pump. At each outlet fuel should gush-not dribble.
If that doesn't work, I'd begin to suspect the high pressure pump.
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Old 18-08-2020, 03:37   #8
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

Try starting it with the alternator belt loose, the alternator or its wiring could be causing the engine to stall in the same way a wind generator can be locked off. I must admit that I’ve never seen an engine actually stalled by a rogue regulator but occasionally seen the situation where the alternator held the engine at idle rpm regardless of throttle position.
Pete.
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Old 18-08-2020, 04:04   #9
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

The W40 can be either a 4108, 4107, or a 499.

The easiest way to check if the electrical problem is causing a lack-of-fuel generated shutdown is by answering the question , "How do you turn off your engine?" If by key switch or push button, there is a fuel solenoid that cuts fuel supply. If there is a pull cable, the electrical problem is probably coincidental, though the intermittent loading noticed while the engine is running could be influenced by an intermittent shorting problem.

For a shorting problem bad enough to kill the engine I would presume you'd smell electrical burning, but a dead primary cable short could (maybe) put enough instantaneous load to kill an idling engine without burning insulation. You'd probably smell arcing-generated ozone though. Don't know how manipulating the gauge panel would induce a main cable short...

Since the PO says the "gauges were changed", I'd not only ask 'why?', but if they were changed like for like, or did they use a panel from one of the other three options available without making the correct modifications, or some such permutation of actions...

Since the engine apparently runs well when it is running, don't think we need to start suspecting the injection pump just yet...
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Old 18-08-2020, 04:22   #10
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

Don’t know your mechanics. On my Westerbeke 6-cylinder the HP pump is two stage with rotary vane first stage feeding the rotary six position Injector. If the vane pump fails it’s game over. Mine got silted up and quit.
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Old 18-08-2020, 05:54   #11
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

The engine kill is a cable pull - no electrics involved.
This morning I had decided I was going to just bypass the whole feed side ( the racor and hoses) in case there could be an issue in the filter housing ( it's a 900fg ) . Jumped in the locker , and for some reason squeezed the primer ball , and it felt mostly full - which it really wasn't yesterday unless you were squeezing it ... is it possible that the gravity from the tank took overnight to 'prime' ?
I did a quick bleed on the engine and got air from the injector returns , haven't tried it yet - I'm going to have some breakfast and run through the bleeding again .
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Old 18-08-2020, 06:29   #12
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

I think an electric pump would save you a ton of time bleeding-like almost instantaneous. Might also overcome minor air leaks.
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Old 18-08-2020, 14:10   #13
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

( there is NO electronic shutoff anywhere)
(The engine kill is a cable pull - no electrics involved).


Hi Svsumurun,
I have the same boat and motor 1976.
Mine is equipped with a an electric fuel valve energized by ignition switch. (you can hear it click to open when ignition switch is turned on)
Valve is located on top of fuel tank with a turn-screw manual by-pass.
Not doubting that yours does not have this fuel valve, as mine was a previous source of fuel leak.
I also have the engine kill cable pull, which has a very fine line between fuel and no fuel.
Auxiliary electric fuel pump makes bleeding almost a breeze.
Curious to learn the fix for your problem.
Andy
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Old 19-08-2020, 04:13   #14
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

Finally got it to start - after sitting overnight , I bleed everything again once then what finally got it to go was cracking the injector lines while cranking it - got to the third one and it fired ! I've probably changed 1000 fuel filters in my life ( 25 years as a Mercedes tech on top of boats ) and I've never had such an issue ( including with this boat) .
Lights are still glowing , tach not working still , but that's another issue obviously !
Thanks everyone for the ideas !
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Old 19-08-2020, 06:15   #15
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Re: Help - crazy issue , no start

For future bleeding requirements two recommendations: get an electric fuel pump inline or with a bypass) and always crack an injector after bleeding everything else in the correct order. That order is: secondary filter vent then high pressure pump, then injectors. I have almost never been successful without cracking an injector or two as the last step.
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