Necessary for CO detectors to be "for marine use"?

[Rohan]

I'll give a little update to what I did. My boat is supposed to have 3 CO detectors, one for each sleeping area (forward cabin, aft cabin, and main salon since it can be converted into a bed). Despite its age, one of them tests perfectly, so I left it there. I replaced the other two with battery powered home units. I prefer the battery power as safer, and they also have display thermometers which is useful. I think 3 detectors on a 36 ft boat is a little overkill anyway, so I have ample protection. Especially when I have no generator.

I noticed one difference not mentioned so far - the "marine use" detectors are designed to be more firmly attached to the wall. The home detectors simply hang on the wall, and could fall off if the boat rocked too much or flipped over, but I easily fixed that.

[Cal31]

[QUOTE=Rohan;3188122]I'll give a little update to what I did. My boat is supposed to have 3 CO detectors, one for each sleeping area (forward cabin, aft cabin, and main salon since it can be converted into a bed). Despite its age, one of them tests perfectly, so I left it there.

Rohan, how did you test it? I know units come with a test button, but think it just tests the battery and circuitry. Did you use something to test the sensor itself?

[sail sfbay]

[QUOTE=Cal31;3188158]

Originally Posted by Rohan

............how did you test it? I know units come with a test button, but think it just tests the battery and circuitry. Did you use something to test the sensor itself?

You are correct...........the button tests the CO monitor circuit functionality. To test the CO monitor sensor you need to spray it with an aerosol like Home Safeguard carbon monoxide detector tester(see link below) The article in the link below discusses this in ore detail

https://www.amazon.com/Home-Safeguar.../dp/B00IIVBPH0

https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector

[Cal31]

[QUOTE=sail sfbay;3188171]

Originally Posted by Cal31

You are correct...........the button tests the CO monitor circuit functionality. To test the CO monitor sensor you need to spray it with an aerosol like Home Safeguard carbon monoxide detector tester(see link below) The article in the link below discusses this in ore detail

https://www.amazon.com/Home-Safeguar.../dp/B00IIVBPH0

https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector

Thank you sfbay. So, going back to the initial question...It seems that whatever one buys, it should be tested regularly as sfbay describes. Looking online, there are many inexpensive units that might not be appropriate for use on or off the boat, particularly when they age. Saw a few tests in which many of the units did not sense the CO even though they appeared to be functional.

I had an exhaust leak in the engine mixer elbow once and didn't initially notice it. So, CO could accumulate even if not doing the things discussed previously. Thank you all for a great discussion.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wingless

Here are the environment requirements for a First Alert battery operated carbon monoxide detector.

• In garages, kitchens, furnace rooms, or in any extremely dusty, dirty or greasy areas.
• Closer than 15 feet (4.6 meters) from a furnace or other fuel burning heat source, or fuel burning appliances like a water heater.
• Within 5 feet (1.5 meters) of any cooking appliance.
• In areas where temperature is colder than 40 ̊ F (4.4 ̊ C) or hotter than 100 ̊ F (37.8 ̊ C). These areas include non-airconditioned crawl spaces, unfinished attics, uninsulated or poorly insulated ceilings, porches, and garages.
• In turbulent air, like near ceiling fans, heat vents, air conditioners, fresh air returns, or open windows. Blowing air may prevent CO from reaching the sensors.
• In direct sunlight.

Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Standard UL2034 requires residential CO Alarms to sound when exposed to levels of CO and exposure times as described below. They are measured in parts per million (ppm) of CO over time (in minutes).

UL2034 Required Alarm Points:

• If the alarm is exposed to 400 ppm of CO, IT MUST ALARM BETWEEN 4 and 15 MINUTES.
• If the alarm is exposed to 150 ppm of CO, IT MUST ALARM BETWEEN 10 and 50 MINUTES.
• If the alarm is exposed to 70 ppm of CO, IT MUST ALARM BETWEEN 60 and 240 MINUTES.* Approximately 10% COHb exposure at levels of 10% to 95% Relative Humidity (RH).
• The unit is designed not to alarm when exposed to a constant level of 30 ppm for 30 days.

These all look fine for a boat w/ a human aboard, needing a CO alert when required.

Unfortunately, a residential unit complies with UL2034. A marine unit complies with UL2034 with the applicable marine sections. No one will ever disclose what those are, and even finding a unit that specifically and clearly states that compliance is a challenge.


I use a lifetime residential CO/Fire unit in my boat. About to add a second.

[Ike]

Kudos to ArmyDavyNY for getting the info. Just to elaborate on this a bit. Carbon Monoxide Detectors aon recreational boats have to meet two standards. Onee is the UL standards as was pointed out. But not mention is the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) standard A-24 Carbon Monoxide Detection Devices.

24.1PURPOSE These standards are guides for the design, construction, and installation of carbon monoxide detection systems on boats.

I would post it here but that would get me in trouble for violating their copyright. Suffice it to say. They go into great detail on the construction of marine CO detectors. This is the standard most boat manufacturers use, and most marine surveyors and insurance companies. Should the occasion arise (hopefully never) that you have to defend yourself in a lawsuit it will also be the standards the court uses.

Back in the late 90s and early 2000's when this standard was being developed I was on the ABYC Project Technical committee that was developing it. (I was the Coast Guard representative) In addition to boat builders and surveyors there were a lot of engineers from the CO detector industry as well. The biggest problem to overcomes was false alarming. Boats, especially new boats exude a lot of strange gases. Fiberglass boats in particular emit styrenes from the fiberglass, other compounds from the vinyl upholstery, compounds from all the plastics in other parts of the boat and the electronics and so on. We really struggled with finding a standard that would prevent the false alarming.

Are they different, yes they certainly are. Will it make a difference on an older boat, wood boat, metal boat? It might. Are they worth $100. As was said, what's your life worth?

I might ad, when I read through many of the other threads over the last 10 or 11 years, it becomes obvious that many of you have air conditioning on your boats. One of the major cause of death from CO, is people who run their genset so they can air condition the boat while sleeping. Do not do this! Not only when you are running your genset. AC sucks in air from outside. If anyone near you is running a genset or engine their exhaust gasses are being sucked in by your air conditioning. I first got involved in this in 1995 as part of an investigation into the deaths of a family of five who were running their genset at night so they could run the AC. They had NO detectors, carbon monoxide, fire or gas detectors.

I will say, an RV detector is better than none at all. My CO detector on my RV is both a CO and smoke detector. It only false alarms when we fry stuff. But at least we know it works. Unfortunately the gas detector false alarms every time we spray air deodorant in the bathroom.

Anyway. There is a reason the CO alarms are expensive and it's not just the company overcharging. It simply costs more to produce them and they are produced in small volumes. A few 100 thousand compared to household detectors that are made by the millions

[GetAway2]

Check the expiration date on any detectors you purchase from WorstMarine. I paid over $120 for an electric version. Eight months after I installed it the alarm kept going off. I checked all of the 'fine print' that came with the unit and it said the unit was good for 3 years. I only got 8 or 9 months use out of mine and they would not exchange or 'fix' my problem.

Buyer beware!

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Ike

AC sucks in air from outside. If anyone near you is running a genset or engine their exhaust gasses are being sucked in by your air conditioning. I first got involved in this in 1995 as part of an investigation into the deaths of a family of five who were running their genset at night so they could run the AC. They had NO detectors, carbon monoxide, fire or gas detectors.

No marine AC I've seen pulls outside air. They are all full recirc, at least the common ones.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Ike

Kudos to ArmyDavyNY for getting the info. Just to elaborate on this a bit. Carbon Monoxide Detectors aon recreational boats have to meet two standards. Onee is the UL standards as was pointed out. But not mention is the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) standard A-24 Carbon Monoxide Detection Devices.

24.1PURPOSE These standards are guides for the design, construction, and installation of carbon monoxide detection systems on boats.

I would post it here but that would get me in trouble for violating their copyright. Suffice it to say. They go into great detail on the construction of marine CO detectors. This is the standard most boat manufacturers use, and most marine surveyors and insurance companies. Should the occasion arise (hopefully never) that you have to defend yourself in a lawsuit it will also be the standards the court uses.

Back in the late 90s and early 2000's when this standard was being developed I was on the ABYC Project Technical committee that was developing it. (I was the Coast Guard representative) In addition to boat builders and surveyors there were a lot of engineers from the CO detector industry as well. The biggest problem to overcomes was false alarming. Boats, especially new boats exude a lot of strange gases. Fiberglass boats in particular emit styrenes from the fiberglass, other compounds from the vinyl upholstery, compounds from all the plastics in other parts of the boat and the electronics and so on. We really struggled with finding a standard that would prevent the false alarming.

Are they different, yes they certainly are. Will it make a difference on an older boat, wood boat, metal boat? It might. Are they worth $100. As was said, what's your life worth?

I might ad, when I read through many of the other threads over the last 10 or 11 years, it becomes obvious that many of you have air conditioning on your boats. One of the major cause of death from CO, is people who run their genset so they can air condition the boat while sleeping. Do not do this! Not only when you are running your genset. AC sucks in air from outside. If anyone near you is running a genset or engine their exhaust gasses are being sucked in by your air conditioning. I first got involved in this in 1995 as part of an investigation into the deaths of a family of five who were running their genset at night so they could run the AC. They had NO detectors, carbon monoxide, fire or gas detectors.

I will say, an RV detector is better than none at all. My CO detector on my RV is both a CO and smoke detector. It only false alarms when we fry stuff. But at least we know it works. Unfortunately the gas detector false alarms every time we spray air deodorant in the bathroom.

Anyway. There is a reason the CO alarms are expensive and it's not just the company overcharging. It simply costs more to produce them and they are produced in small volumes. A few 100 thousand compared to household detectors that are made by the millions

Ike,

I don't have my copy of ABYC with me (I'm on vacation), but I have read this section several times. I'm about 99% sure that ABYC's entire discussion on construction is saying "UL LISTED." They go into detail on installation, but not construction. Are you aware of any CO detector that states compliance with ABYC? It's hard enough to find one that clearly states UL compliance (I've tried!).

[Ike]

24.5.1 Detectors shall be certified by an independent third party to meet the requirements of UL 2034, Single and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Detectors including the applicable sections pertaining for use on recreational boats.

24.6.1 The device shall be tested to UL 2034, Single and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Detectors including the applicable sections pertaining to use on recreational boats.

24.9 MARKINGS

24.9.1 Detectors shall be marked with the following:
24.9.1.1 Name of certifying body,
24.9.1.2“Marine Carbon Monoxide Alarm” or equivalent as tested to A-24,
24.9.1.3 Replace by date – MM/YYYY or
24.9.1.3.1 Replace by: XX months after retail sale as determined by the manufacturer.
24.9.2 The markings shall be clearly visible as installed.NOTE: These markings are in addition to markings required under UL 2034, Single and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Detectors including the applicable sections pertaining to use on recreational boats.

If you are an ABYC member you can look it up on line at https://abycinc.org/ I stopped carrying a book around with me at least 10 years ago. First they had it on CD. then they put it on line.

Anyway, are the detector manufacturers actual making it as tested to A-24? I don't know, I haven't looked at one in years. I guess i'll have to look.

[Ike]

I looked at Fireboys web site. I do not see an ABYC reference on the device but it is referenced in the manual and on their brochure.

MTIs manual does not reference ABYC A-24

As far as I can tell Kiddee doesn't make a marine rated CO detector, at least there are none on their website. They claim that Part Number: KE7DCO is for use on RVs and Boats but do not cite a standard that would apply, at least not in the US. It's built to CE (ISO) Standards but even the cite they make doesn't mention boats. "Kitemarked to BS EN 50291-1 (domestic use) BS EN 50291-2 (camping, caravanning and travel)"

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by Ike

24.5.1 Detectors shall be certified by an independent third party to meet the requirements of UL 2034, Single and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Detectors including the applicable sections pertaining for use on recreational boats.

24.6.1 The device shall be tested to UL 2034, Single and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Detectors including the applicable sections pertaining to use on recreational boats.

24.9 MARKINGS

24.9.1 Detectors shall be marked with the following:
24.9.1.1 Name of certifying body,
24.9.1.2“Marine Carbon Monoxide Alarm” or equivalent as tested to A-24,
24.9.1.3 Replace by date – MM/YYYY or
24.9.1.3.1 Replace by: XX months after retail sale as determined by the manufacturer.
24.9.2 The markings shall be clearly visible as installed.NOTE: These markings are in addition to markings required under UL 2034, Single and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Detectors including the applicable sections pertaining to use on recreational boats.

If you are an ABYC member you can look it up on line at https://abycinc.org/ I stopped carrying a book around with me at least 10 years ago. First they had it on CD. then they put it on line.

Anyway, are the detector manufacturers actual making it as tested to A-24? I don't know, I haven't looked at one in years. I guess i'll have to look.

This page is talking about UL and AYBC labeling, ie End of Life and other requirements- https://www.fireboy-xintex.com/marin...r-end-of-life/

[youngtico]

Yes if you charge batteries in your cabin they will off gas Hydrogen and set off the CO detector with a false alarm. I replaced mine twice before I researched the problem. Marine detectors use a different sensor than a home detector. So of course if it says Marine it costs more. I was unable to find less expensive ones so I had to bite the bullet. In my opinion having detectors is overkill. Think about the sources of CO on a boat. The engine and the stove. When the engine is being used you are most likely under way and in the cockpit with the companionway open. The stream of air from a moving boat most likely will move the exhaust off the stern of the boat. In the event that someone is sleeping in a cabin adjacent to the engine while underway may present a problem but if CO could seep through so would exhaust and you would smell it. The stove would have a hard time incapacitating you unless you used it to heat the cabin and went to sleep. With all that being said the standard is to have the detectors so suck it up and buy the right ones. Just don't stress about it to much.

Scott from S/V White Pine