Need a new engine 42' offshore SV--thoughts?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by chasmains

I hear of engines dying a lot in this forum and in other sources. Replacement and rebuild are the standard repairs. Uhtflogen had a catastrophic failure. What I don’t understand is why marine engines are so quick to go to end of life. There are millions of cars and trucks with over 100,000 miles still running. If I assume an average speed of 40 mph for 100,000 miles, the engine ran for 2500 hours and is still viable. Uhtflogen reported around 300-400 hours in 2 different cases in his boat. Wow! What is going wrong? Diesel truck and bus commercial motors are typically replaced around 200,000 miles, 5000 hours! Someone is getting screwed out of a lot of money in sailboat land. Any comments or justification? I’m not trying to hijack the thread.

The biggest detriment to marine engines is LACK of use. Especially sailboats which may get started and run for 10 mins and shut down. Never fully warmed up.

Add to that the salt environment... When a sailboat engine sits, salt water lays in the waterlift muffler. Where ever the engine rotation stops will determine which valves are open. The water will evaporate slowly. The salt humidity will accumulate on an open valve or valve shaft. It can create light rust on the cylinder wall. It may corrode the injection nozzle tip. etc etc.

Yeah big trucks may go 500,000 miles actually. They are often not shut off even when sleeping in the cab. That has changed a bit recently.

[basssears]

Based on simplicity, durability, ease of maintenance, availability and price of parts and ability for any diesel mechanic in the world to work on it, three choices come to mind:
1) Beta
2) Beta
3) Beta



-- Bass

[sailingchiro]

I had to repower a few years ago.
Electric-was Over $40,000 not counting any source to power them. Add solar and genset and the price was over $55k.

Yanmar, found them hard to comparison shop. Prices were hard to find and had to pay for authorized mechanic to install. Quote was pretty high ($12k per engine times 2= $24k).

Beta's, easy to compare prices, easy to work on, parts are plenty (Kubota engines are used everywhere). Owner can install. About half the price of the Yanmar but I had to install. I went with 2 20hp for about $12k ($6000 each). I have been very happy with them. I also installed a genset that used the same engine. Therefore, I have 3 duplicate engines. All use the same filters, belts, starter. water pump, alternator, and I have a parts engines if needed in emergency.
Sound Marine Diesel had better prices than the North Carolina company.

[Hoodsail]

Uhtflogen - can you describe more specifically what happened to your diesel? What actually blew? You mention 3 of 4 injectors "went down", Can you describe "went down". Did these injectors stop working? You note a defective pump...Was it a defective fuel pump? Water pump? You note oil from engine....did the engine over heat? did the engine seize secondary to oil loss? checked dip stick and oil level? oil pressure prior to stopping engine? You note "internal engine damage", what specifically? Lastly, what color was your exhaust? white, black, blue...High crankcase pressure may have been secondary to worn piston rings/cylinders (evidenced by blue exhaust) leading to your situation. But with only 450 hrs since rebuild pistons/rings should be excellent.... your diesel should be "like new"... I am not familiar with Isuzu diesels so cant speak to its specific design...hope you can repair existing engine and continue your offshore plans. thnks

[c.K.]

Originally Posted by uhtflogan

Hi folks,

We have a Vancouver 42 (mid-1990s, but new to us in fall 2019) and have been prepping for blue water. Alas, out on a shakedown this summer, our engine (450 hours on the rebuild, 350 hours when we purchased, mid 1990s Isuzu) blew up. Looks like 3 or 4 fuel injectors went down and there was a defective pump. There was also fine spray of oil everywhere when the engine went, which the theory is was a crank case breather / internal engine damage.

First question--any thoughts on why a crank case breather goes suddenly? I'm being told "maintenance." The boat was serviced in March and again in June, when I'd asked the guys to check over the engine and make sure we were shakedown ready, and everything recommended as maintenance and repair was done, so I thought we were good. What am I missing? All the oil and fluid was good when it was towed in.

Second question--I have to assume that I am looking, gulp, at a new engine. Thoughts pro/con on the Yanmar 4JH57 engine with the ZF transmission?

Third question--thoughts on transitioning over to electric given that I have to tear everything out as an alternative? Is that realistic? Desirable? Cost prohibitive? Don't know much about electric alternatives but poking around in some research and would love to hear any experience.

Or if anyone is looking for a Vancouver 42 needing a new engine, I'll make you hell of a deal LOL.

Thanks for any thoughts on my engine woes.

Had same problem with My Isuzu, first time hole in piston huge oil spill 2years later needed headgasket after blow out ,and overhauled the head:all to no avail must have had a crack somewhere
Took out the Isuzu and replaced it with a mitsubishi since I did the work myself it was quite cost effective but needed a new prop as well
New engine installation has to be done by an official mechanic otherwise no warranty Beta is one of the few that let you do the bulk of the work

[MJH]

Originally Posted by uhtflogan

Hi folks,

We have a Vancouver 42 (mid-1990s, but new to us in fall 2019) and have been prepping for blue water. Alas, out on a shakedown this summer, our engine (450 hours on the rebuild, 350 hours when we purchased, mid 1990s Isuzu) blew up. Looks like 3 or 4 fuel injectors went down and there was a defective pump. There was also fine spray of oil everywhere when the engine went, which the theory is was a crank case breather / internal engine damage.

First question--any thoughts on why a crank case breather goes suddenly? I'm being told "maintenance." The boat was serviced in March and again in June, when I'd asked the guys to check over the engine and make sure we were shakedown ready, and everything recommended as maintenance and repair was done, so I thought we were good. What am I missing? All the oil and fluid was good when it was towed in.

Second question--I have to assume that I am looking, gulp, at a new engine. Thoughts pro/con on the Yanmar 4JH57 engine with the ZF transmission?

Third question--thoughts on transitioning over to electric given that I have to tear everything out as an alternative? Is that realistic? Desirable? Cost prohibitive? Don't know much about electric alternatives but poking around in some research and would love to hear any experience.

Or if anyone is looking for a Vancouver 42 needing a new engine, I'll make you hell of a deal LOL.

Thanks for any thoughts on my engine woes.

Sorry to hear about your engine troubles. You say 450 hours on the rebuild but what are the TOTAL engine hours? Rebuilt engines are only as good as the man that did the job...and you can quote me! They can be quoted cheaply but once the mechanic gets into the engine all other questions needing decisions begin to appear and you end up spending more than expected but still have an old engine.

Forget going electric.

All said and done it would be simplest and best for your Bluewater plans to replace with the engine make you already have as that eliminates many issues for someone without diesel experience. Then maintain it religiously according to the manufacturer.

What kind of transmission ratio and prop (fixed, feathering, folding)
does your boat presently have? I don't like the idea of new engine with old transmission given the unknown total hours...it is just postponing problems. So, I would also replace the transmission with a ratio that best complements the prop I have or will upgrade to.

As for engine size I have a Volvo-Penta D2-55B engine in my Tayana Vancouver 42 that the previous owner put in and came to me with only two hours. It has been trouble free for the 14 years and 1600 hours I have put on it but parts are expensive. I concur on staying away from turbo engines.

The transmission is a Warner Velvet Drive model 10-17-008 that also was new and again trouble free. However, the ratio is not optimal for the feathering prop I have installed, ratio can't be changed, and too costly to replace, thus my comment above.

Good Luck and consider joining the Tayana Owners Group (TOG).

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Searles]

Re build the Isuzu ,find out wot failed ,and correct it ,re built my Isuzu c240 at 19k hrs ,full long motor from factory ,change over the good gear, dropped straight onto engine beds relatively simple job .⛵️⚓️

[nofacey]

Easiest option is to rebuild the Isuzu - all connections/gear/ mounts remain the same, and rebuilding what you have will be cheaper than any new motor (given that the case & head are okay). Mid 90’s Isuzu’s are good engines, worth keeping.

What went wrong? Did you ever have the injectors or hp fuel pump serviced?
- that is not something a mechanic is going to address during an oil change, and usually requires a specialty shop (you or mechanic pulls parts & sends out).
I don’t do that annually, but consider it basic whenever I take over ownership of a used diesel.

Understanding (if not actually doing) the rebuild will significantly increase your comprehension of engine issues when you’re off in remote locations.

I actually consider your older model diesel superior to a new replacement - your engine is 99% mechanical - it can be fixed in remote spots, without an engine analyser, or fancy variable electronic injection.

[ob44]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Good advice By TrientPieds.

I would not go with Yanmar because of their installation and warranty policies. I am a DIYer and replaced my Perkins 4-108 myself with Betamarine's blessing. Yanmar requires a factory authorized dealer install, Yanmar inspection to certify warranty and ALL work done by Yanmar authorized dealer to keep warranty in place. As I understand it you can't even change your own oil. That may be great if you are staying near a Yanmar dealer and you are not a DIYer but for bluewater cruising that is a nightmare.

Volvo has a reputation for high parts prices and difficult parts availability.

Betamarine in contrast shares the base engine information with you and you can get parts worldwide. They will do custom engine brackets that make engine installation a breeze and will do other customization per your your needs/desires. After 18 years of ownership and about 4500 engine hours I have only done three repairs outside of scheduled maintenance. Replaced copper piping with hose, rebuilt sea water pump and replaced engine mounts.

Buying a new engine -- once you have decided to go that route -- reminds me of the olden days when we perseverated over stereo equipment (amps, pre-amps, receivers, channels, sub-woofers) with all of the technical aspects. It was easy to overthink it. I recently decided to buy a new engine for my Tartan 40. After research, I went with a Beta 38 to replace my 1988 44 HP Universal (a Kuboda). It was like removing that huge old furnace in the basement with a compact, quiet, modern one. I have been thrilled with the performance and simplicity of the Beta. Some things I learned in the process:

- seems obvious, but buying a new engine is the way to go if you've had major repairs. I rebuilt my old engine once and replaced the head gasket after that. And what do you have after a rebuild? A rebuilt old engine with no warranty. Took me thousands of dollars of repairs to realize that.

- Many sailboats' engines are too big. Hull speed is hull speed; more hp is just wasted. Boat mfrs do not necessarily determine what hp is correct, they source engines based on the deal they get with engine mfrs at the time. I was told that the Beta 38 would push my somewhat heavy-displacement Tartan just fine, that the xtra hp was wasted. That turned out to be correct; I hit hull speed with plenty of revs to spare. See "Repowering Your Sailboat" by Joe DeMers, Windcheck Magazine, January 2011 http://windcheckmagazine.com. B/t/w, although I did not purchase my Beta 38 from Joe DeMers for logistical reasons, he is a remarkable source of knowledge on all diesel engines and he is willing to share that knowledge. Your engine likely is too big for your boat.

- The size/type of engine you can use is limited only by your engine space. Mfrs do not design boats for particular engines; you can put whatever engine you want in there if it will fit. And since it is likely that a new engine will be smaller, your choices are increased.


- There are many fine engines out there and I suspect that in today's world they all (or most of them) will be a huge improvement of your old engine. Details such as location of installation, warranty, parts availability and such might tip the scales for you. I will note that the Beta is actually a Kuboda, which is a "marinized" tractor motor. As such, parts for it are available around the world.

[David B]

Originally Posted by MARC D

A bad injector will cause very high temperature on top of piston to the point of piercing it. That will cause the blowback and oil spitting thru pcv.

Have you lifted the head to look at top of pistons?

Good analysis it seems. Logical to at least undo a few connections and lift the head. All that can be done in an hour or so.

If it is a hole in the piston top caused by a faulty injector, then might be able to replace in situ (at least by un-coupling engine and lifting a little to get the sump off), or at the worst, take it out, give it a good check-over, and you are back in business.

If this sort of work is not your scene, then get some estimates based on scenarios. That will help you with your decision.

For what it's worth, we like our Yanmar/ZF.

Electric - Practical Boat Owner did an article on that a few months back.
I would at least want a decent sized diesel generator as back-up if I went that route. Motoring or motor-sailing through the night needs a lot of re-charging - and if its a wet day ......

[Josh.]

Crazy isn't it, most of it comes down to needing a quick replacment!
Many of the marine engines I've worked on look worse than they actually are with the core engine being fine short of downright abuse or drinking salt water. Just the accessories like hoses, mounts, exhaust, cabling, alternator, starter being the issues which comes down to general wear and tear.

Given your regularly given the engine a run for an hour at moderate load, change the oil and air-filter at-least once every 100 hours it should last forever.

I'd be recommending a second mechanic look over that engine as something fishy happend. I'll second the Beta's if you like working on it yourself.
I wouldn't waste your time on EV, you can buy a huge amount of diesel for the cost of a solid lithium bank and setup.

[cottonsail]

My boat is 15,000 lbs displacement. Waterline length is 27.8'. Engine is a D2-50 Volvo Penta. It is a perfect match.

[uhtflogan]

Thanks. We are definitely having sticker shock, and this did rattle me. Everything was running fine on the engine, we were coming around Gallow's Point shoal in Nanaimo BC, looking to drop a hook off Newcastle, when it just stopped. Tried to restart. Nothing. Went below and oil spray all over the engine room. Knew that was game over for the day. At that point to avoid being blown onto the shoal we had to fall off into an active ferry lane, with a ferry coming, passing through an active float plane zone, with planes landing, and get the stay sail up, but light winds so minimal control, and shallow water ahead off us on the other side, without much confidence we had the wind to make another tack. Obviously a securite situation with the Coast Guard involved. They were amazing and didn't have to scramble, but it was an active conversation as that is a very heavy commercial lane. This probably doesn't mean anything to anyone not local to Vancouver Island, but up here the only thing more stressful would be that engine going down in the middle of something like Dodd's Narrows. Which we were planning to pass at the early morning slack. Thinking about that engine going down then, if the tide were the wrong way, gives me serious pause. We'd have been a full on may day. We had kids onboard, and I think we're a bit rattled about off shore after this experience and about this boat. It's the "are we going to trust this boat again" problem. It was a big jump up from a Viking Ontario 27 for us. Vancouver 42s are a bear in anything tight, though we crossed the Strait of Georgia earlier in the summer in unexpectedly heavy seas, and in heavy weather it is beautiful. Anyhow, thanks for the advice strongly against electric. We've talked with 3 or 4 different marine engine folks up here, including people we trust and who won't be doing the work, and I think consensus is that the rebuild wasn't well done and we probably need to start over on an engine. But all you sailors know--it's a head game sometimes.

[uhtflogan]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Uhtflogen - can you describe more specifically what happened to your diesel? What actually blew? You mention 3 of 4 injectors "went down", Can you describe "went down". Did these injectors stop working? You note a defective pump...Was it a defective fuel pump? Water pump? You note oil from engine....did the engine over heat? did the engine seize secondary to oil loss? checked dip stick and oil level? oil pressure prior to stopping engine? You note "internal engine damage", what specifically? Lastly, what color was your exhaust? white, black, blue...High crankcase pressure may have been secondary to worn piston rings/cylinders (evidenced by blue exhaust) leading to your situation. But with only 450 hrs since rebuild pistons/rings should be excellent.... your diesel should be "like new"... I am not familiar with Isuzu diesels so cant speak to its specific design...hope you can repair existing engine and continue your offshore plans. thnks

Answered some of this in my comment below, another poster also asked. But to add there was oil coming out the exhaust and bilge as well as all over engine room (fine spray). As in my other reply, we were above on the helm when it went down, so you can't hear much. All we experienced was sudden loss of power. Went below, saw the oil, and at that point we were in a reasonably hairy securite situation. One issue was a defective fuel pump--fixable. But the crank case breather appears to be the sense of the larger issue. Any further thoughts, much appreciated.

[svkairos]

I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 4jhe for sale. https://youtu.be/-CaSDhmcclc