No Oil Pressure. No Problem?

[jimbunyard]

Following is a page from the Yanmar operators manual.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Qar9xi-Kj8EED2



It seems that the buzzer should only sound momentarily (.3 sec) and then go off, with the warning lights going off after 4 seconds.

If there is no buzzer, something is amiss. If the oil pressure is not indicated on the display, something is amiss. (At least to my mind. It is possible that Yanmar or Lagoon 'specified' that there was/is no need for the oil pressure to be displayed, but the pressure must be monitored by the engine computer for it to 'know' if the pressure is sufficient to safely run the engine, so there is unquestionably an oil pressure sensor located somewhere on the engine. To have 'turned off' the display feature seems particularly asinine, if that is truly the case.)

Not having an analog oil pressure, water temperature and voltmeter simultaneously visible is an invitation to being ignorant about the ongoing condition of your engines, and is likely to result in less than timely preventive maintenance.

Doesn't sound like anything's wrong with the engines beyond either a sensor or possibly the display (which will probably be pretty expensive if it has to be replaced), so it seems important to get it sorted out before you sign.

Regarding the idea of how the engine 'knows the oil pressure before it starts', it is entirely possible that the engine won't start until it reads sufficient oil pressure, as the computer operates on a time scale of milliseconds...

[smac999]

Engine has no oil pressure when off and takes a couple secs to build pressure after started. So his comment about not starting is bs.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

The engine operation manual shows oil pressure guage (electronic display) and what you should expect after starting; ie. oil pressure, engine temp, and rpm. Again, I don't know if the prospective boat's engines are using the same setup but Yanmar shows that they do display the oil pressure. Somewhere around page 24 and then around page 55.

Is that a guess or did you read the manual?

The issue remains that the broker said Yanmar said the engine won't start without oil pressure. None of the engines would ever start in that case because they don't have oil pressure until started. I don't believe Yanmar would say that. What does that make the broker? If you want to know if it has an oil pressure sender, just look at the engine.

At a minimum I'd require the oil pressure to work and or added if it's an option. An oil pressure sender is not expensive. My Kubota came with an oil pressure switch for a low oil pressure alarm but not an oil pressure sender. I added a dual switch/sender and pressure gauge.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Thin_Water

The Yanmar manual I found online makes no mention of an optional oil pressure sender. Thanks for your help.

After a very quick glance the only mention of an optional 'Oil pressure sensor' i can find is for the Larger C35 Instrument Panel, (see attached PDF) which panel do you have, the B25 Standard or the C35 Optional? am guessing you have the B25? maybe this is where the broker or his guy is getting the optional sensor info from...

My new 4JH4-TE has the Larger optional panel (in this case a C30), upon start up i get an alarm as soon as the ignition is switched on and keeps sounding until the engine is running and the correct oil pressure is reached, it will also alarm on shut down as the oil pressure drops, as you say. I would hazard a guess that yours would have a similar alarm setup to, but if that was the case It does seem strange that both engines are not alarming........both have the same fault? or designed/fitted that way??.....I would definitely be getting my own expert in to check this out first.....

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Is that a guess or did you read the manual?

I read it in the manual. I haven't read the whole manual, I just looked up pertinent items.

[NYSail]

What did the surveyor think? Sure he knows of competent mechanics that can sort this out for you.....

Good luck!

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by Thin_Water

First time posting on the forum, and in need of help. I am in the final stages of buying a used 2017 Lagoon 42. The boat is located in Grenada. I visited the boat last week for the survey and sea trial. The boat was in great shape and as described by the broker. The boat was on the hard when I arrived (and had been for hurricane season). Getting the boat launched, rigged, sailed, and re-hauled was exhausting.

Once we launched the boat, the broker started both engines without issue. We checked transmission operation, cooling water">engine cooling water flow, and the bilges for leaks and all was fine. We motored out, put up our sails and enjoyed surprisingly nice performance from the Lagoons’ sail plan. At the end of the sail, I was at the helm and restarted the engines; again without issue. During the motor in I scrolled through the LCD screen at the bottom of the tachometer. I can’t remember all the available data, but I do remember that both engine temperatures were fine, but when scrolling through the oil pressure the display just displayed dashes. Something like this ---. I shut the engines down one at a time with the kill switch (power still on) and didn’t hear a low oil pressure alarm. Every boat I have ever sailed/owned has had an audible low oil pressure alarm that is tested at start up and shut down.

After the visit, I made the buyer agreement for the boat conditional on a few items. Having a Yanmar mechanic fix the audible alarm, straighten out the LCD Oil pressure display issue and confirm that there was no actual oil pressure problem, and confirm all issues were related to either a display/sender problem.

The seller agreed to my terms, but now the broker for the boat has come back with the following: “As per our telephone conversation yesterday here is what I have understood from the Yanmar representative. The new common rail engines so the 4JH 57 that we have actually on (the boat) have no more buzzers like the old systems. With the new generation of engines. It is not obligatory have oil pressure senders, it is an option as the engine won’t start if there’s an oil pressure problem and will mention error on the reading panel. Having senders installed on the engines is an option that lagoon factory did not take as they considered that having an engine that won’t start with oil pressure and an error reading on the panel is enough.”

The engines were running for at least 30 minutes. During that time the engine temps were rock steady.

Can anyone confirm what the broker is saying? The Yanmar manual I found online makes no mention of an optional oil pressure sender. Thanks for your help.

you did make your initial offer along with a ten percent deposit to be held in escrow contingent on your acceptance of a marine surveyor report and sea trials, did you not? an offer without a deposit is worth squat to a seller unless the buyer has some skin in the game. I've always had an offer accepted after a few back and forth negotiations to reach an agreement on the final OFFER price, all in writing, and ONLY THEN conducted sea trials WITH THE SURVEYOR ONBOARD. I couldn't care less about input from the sellers broker. in fact I've always had my own broker before I begin even looking at boats and let him do all the work searching for what I need in his multiple listings which I don't have access to on my own. then i let my broker and the seller dicker about the commission split from the seller.

then sea trials are conducted the boat is hauled out to complete the underside survey or in your case, already on the hard, the surveyor begins underneath. then comes a secondary negotiation of who pays for what the surveyor has found. if the two of you cannot come to terms your deposit is refunded and you walk.

[Thin_Water]

Originally Posted by NYSail

What did the surveyor think? Sure he knows of competent mechanics that can sort this out for you.....

Good luck!

The surveyor agreed that the seller would need to sort out the issues. Language was added to the Buyer Agreement for the seller to have a qualified Yanmar mechanic fix the problem.

Of course I can’t buy the boat based on the brokers new assessment that there is no audible alarm and that oil pressure senders were optional.

My best bet might be finding a knowledgeable Lagoon 42 owner.

[Matsubob]

No oil pressure reading because of the sender only being capable of opearting a light and buzzer combination is "standard" for Yanmar. A sending unit that will give a digital pressure reading might be optional. BUT: an audible alarm is NEVER optional on a boat! (with emphasis on the word, "audible") Common sense. You have to be able to know that there is inadequate oil pressure if and when that occurs. It would be irresponsible for a manufacturer to not provide adequate warning when you are motoring with shallows and rocks surrounding you! Yanmar doesn't DO that!
I live just down the street from the Yanmar dealer here in Matsuyama. (Japan) I can ask them for you, if you'd like.

[Matagorda]

Hi Thin Water

I have a Lagoon 42 with Yanmar 4JH57's. The control panels are the standard B25 units (no dedicated analogue oil pressure or water temp gauges).

On power up you should hear the oil pressure buzzer, and once the motors are started, this buzzer should go away once oil pressure is detected by the pressure switches. This is normal for these motors in standard configuration.

On the digital display at the bottom of the Yanmar B25 panel is a digital display which can be scrolled though a bunch of different readings to show things like engine load, fuel flow, throttle position, air pressure, water temperature, and oil pressure, and some other stuff. In the factory default set up, most of these readings are not configured and will show a couple of dashes as you have observed.

A thorough study of the manual is required to understand how to configure these read outs, but it is not hard to do. One of the nice readings that I use a lot is the fuel flow reading. However, one of the readings that cannot be shown just by adjusting the system settings is oil pressure. To show the actual oil pressure, an optional sender unit is also required. It screws into the engine block at the same location as the separate pressure switch which activates the oil pressure alarm. Cost is approx $250 each for the genuine Yanmar part.

I suggest that you have someone start the motors again to check that the oil pressure alarm buzzers are working correctly. If not, there are two scenarios that could apply. One is actual loss of oil pressure. If the oil level is OK and the filter is not blocked, this is highly unlikely, but can be checked using a gauge as one of the other readers pointed out. The other scenario, is a faulty ECU. I only know this because I faced this scenario after a lightning strike damaged one of the ECU's, and caused a continuous oil pressure alarm message on the B25 panel (as well as activation of the buzzer). Once the ECU was replaced, all was good again.

This raises another topic, and that is the reliability of these new electronic common rail diesels. They are great motors but if the electronics are damaged (as in a lightning strike) the motors are potentially unusable and not easy to fix when at sea.

Hope this helps.

[bcboomer]

Some cars have had systems that prevent starting without oil pressure since at least 1987. They simply don't allow ignition, or in this case fuel, until the oil pressure has reached a minimum, maybe 15 psi. It only takes a few cranks to reach this threshold. The broker is not lying.

[Moontide]

I would suggest you talk to a Yanmar mechanic directly, not through a 3rd party/broker. I have found Mastery folks excellent with knowledge and service. Located in St Pete or Tampa or around there I believe.


They are Yanmar distributors and can give an authoritive answer. Way better than our guesses.

[Thin_Water]

Thank you for the quick response. I was finding hard to believe that there weren't analog sender units, but you have confirmed it. Did you add the sender units?

The alarm is not sounding, so that does seem to be a real issue.

I will touch base with Mastery as well and have a mechanic get on board and verify the oil pressure of both engines.

By the way, congratulations on your Lagoon. I was very impressed with its sailing qualities. I think Lagoon did a great job on this boat.

[iyamwhatiyam]

You are wise to execute your due diligence. We drove hours to Indian Town to have our prospective purchase surveyed. Sailed - lots, but local. Purchased, never.

The broker recommended surveyor arrives and announces that he does not survey diesel engines. Uh, now what? Is this normal? So we moved ahead on the survey, the results of which, such as it was, we were happy. Not bad, a 1989 Catalina '30 MKII for $28K. Being unfamiliar with the boat, we took the broker along for the trip from Indian Town to Jacksonville. We motorsailed about 8 miles offshore all through the afternoon and all night before arriving at Jacksonville. Fortunately the weather was pleasant and the hatches and companionway were left open. Tammy and broker were down below for much of the journey. This is why I don't think the broker was in cahoots, because if he had known that the exhaust riser had a gaping hole in it, he never would have gone below. So you are so correct in getting your oil pressure alarm checked. Ours didn't work either, the sensor was never installed, so we fixed that right away. Of course we have a deceptively simple Universal M25XP. Check the attached photos of the riser. The galley drawer directly above has a good 4" hole burned through its bottom. NEAT!!!

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

Some cars have had systems that prevent starting without oil pressure since at least 1987. They simply don't allow ignition, or in this case fuel, until the oil pressure has reached a minimum, maybe 15 psi. It only takes a few cranks to reach this threshold. The broker is not lying.

I'd like to see that backed up with something. I certainly don't believe it.

I would talk directly to the owner. It appears the owner or broker or both aren't being honest about what the problem is and furthermore tried to cover it up by disabling the buzzers. Then the broker said that Yanmar said it was normal. This points to the broker being the problem. It's not unusual for a broker to sell parts, equipment, ECU's, etc off absentee owners boats and replacing the defective units on the boat listed. Don't know if that's the case here or if the owner is withholding info but it's clear that at least the broker tried to cover it up. You really need to talk to the owner at this point.