Outboard vs. Inboard - Repowering a 31' 1979 CAL

[Sluzer07]

Hi Guys,

I am new to both sailboat ownership and this forum. So please bear with me.

I purchased a 31' 1979 Cal sailboat last year (9,170 lbs displacement). The engine (pictured) is in rough shape and, after a season of clunking around, has finally given out. After a few expensive visits from competent mechanics, it appears an internal piece has failed. I believe it was the high pressure fuel pump. Though, I may be incorrect on the specific part. The bottom line is I can rebuild a ~40 year old engine for $5,000 or completely repower the boat for between $15k-$20k by my mechanics estimate. Besides the price, the issue with the rebuild is no marine repair shop in Seattle will be able to tackle that big of a project until after the summer; meaning my summer is shot.

My solution and ultimate ask to you all is: is it worth it or possible to mount a ~9.9hp outboard on the transom (pictured) of this boat to salvage my short Seattle summer? In the meantime, I will be saving for a full repower. After repowering the boat, I can keep the 9.9hp for a dinghy I plan to get next year to gunkhole in the san juans or I could simply resell it and recoup some $$.

I feel a little long-winded already and will stop now to see what you guys think. I really appreciate any help you can offer.

[Don C L]

Anything can be done, but my first question is: Is this engine just to get you in and out of a slip or to go miles? Actually with what I know of your area, I am guessing miles.
I have an outboard and it can work. One problem with your boat is the reverse transom and the angle of the rudder. I THINK it will be ok, but you'll have to check beforehand to be sure an outboard, longshaft, on a mount, lowered, won't be hitting the rudder. I don't think so, but check it first. Here is a link to a mount that has the longest throw that I know of:

https://www.catalinadirect.com/index...our-spring.cfm

Now, if you go that route, a 9.9 longshaft will get you around fine and given the little overhang you have on your stern, should not be coming out of the water in swells if lowered to the correct depth. BTW, where will the fuel tank go? On the floor of the cockpit? That may be too much in the way, not sure, depends on your boat and tolerance for a bulky thing there. You'll likely need a good rigid box to mount over it to prevent kicking the fuel line off. The good news is, when you get repowered, the mount can be used to stow your dinghy engine. The bad news is longshafts are not good for dinghies. You'd have to do the math but PERHAPS the mount linked here will lower a standard shaft outboard low enough to make it workable but I kinda doubt it.
Now if you are just getting in and out of the slip, the shorter shaft outboard should be fine.

Now, with an engineer's help, or a little creative thinking on your part and consultation with a metal fabricator, you might be able to design a better outboard hoist that lifts the whole engine up, with a block and tackle, without having to tilt it, and lowers it to the right depth without touching the rudder and with that you may have even more time to save up for the new engine. The PO of my boat was an engineer and he did that (since my boat has no provision for an inboard) and it works really well. It looks a little funky right now, it needs some cosmetics, but it is strong, and works remarkably well with no hassles and the added bonus, especially for my long keel boat, is I can reach over the transom and turn the engine and turn my boat on a dime.

On a second look at your transom I see you'd have to reach WAY down to lower the engine, and the ladder won't be useable. You'd likely have to remove it, and have to step out onto the rung that is the hinge to lower the engine. You'll need an electric start realistically.

[Don C L]

Looking at your transom again, you might be able to use a fixed outboard mount and tilt the engine up, you'd have to play with some pics of your boat and how far out the mount would have to be to allow the engine head room to rotate up and then see if the lower unit of a longshaft will come all the way up out of the water. I see you'll have to see how much room there is inside to mount the bracket given the exhaust coming out there.

[nhschneider]

If the problem is the high-pressure fuel pump, they are not 'internal' and can be repaired or replaced fairly quickly. Although the timing procedures for some diesel engines are best left for professionals, a fuel injection pump can often be removed and reinstalled by someone with limited mechanical skills as long as they don't alter the crankshaft position once the pump is removed.

Good luck, fair winds and calm seas.

[danielamartindm]

I dunno, it sounds crazy to me, to buy a larger outboard than you'll need to ultimately power a dinghy, and the hardware to fit it to your vessel, for the sake of "salvaging" a month or so of cruising time?

[Jammer]

I have an outboard on my 25' Morgan. It has never had an inboard. I have a similar transom shape but it is vertical rather than reverse..



The outboard is an extra-long shaft, high-thrust 8 hp Yamaha, with electric start and power trim/tilt. The 8hp is a derated version of the 9.9. It works great and moves the boat well. The fuel tank sits in the cockpit. The outboard is on a heavy bracket that is through-bolted to the transom and that extends the motor out about 12" from the transom.


The main problem with this setup is that the outboard is difficult to steer during docking maneuvers, that is, those situations where the rudder and the outboard must both be manipulated to move the boat in the desired direction.


You will have to decide for yourself whether it is worth it in your situation. Depending on your goals for the boat, you may find that it works well enough that you decide not to repair the diesel.

[NoTies]

You don't need a marine repair shop to rebuild/repair, you need an engine rebuild shop. You and your mates get the engine out and take it to them, they do what they specialise in, you and your mates re-install and google how to do a re-alignment. End result, professionally rebuilt engine, 2-4 cases of beer consumed (depending on your mates) with your mates and all of your knowledge levels and confidence increased.

[Don C L]

Pete's suggestion is worth looking into if you are a bit handy and/or have some friends who are. That is exactly what I did with a buddy of mine and his Volvo MD7A. And there was a lot less room in there for access to the engine than you have. We disconnected the intake hose, and exhaust and electrical (mark everything first!) and prop shaft of course, and wrestled it out, slid it out on some 4x4 rails and hoisted it out at the travel lift at the boatyard and into the back of a pickup. We have a friend who is a mechanic and though he'd never seen that engine before, he had no problem working on it. The only thing was he was shocked when he looked online to get parts and saw how hard some were to find and how much they were! To our surprise he painted it too.. but since he likes Caterpillar better than Volvo green the engine came back bright yellow!

[Wayfarer1008]

Since your live near Seattle look at the classifies adds on Craigslist for a used motor in the Boat Parts section. I just looked and there is a Westerbeke 30 hp inboard that can be easily rebuilt for $950. If its the same motor it would be easy to rebuild the motor and swap it out with what you have without the down time.

[SV_Harbinger]

On my old C&C 25 I also had an outboard and she never had an inboard, there are some differences in transom between the boats in question but it worked ok for me as long as the water was calm or around the pier, it did tend to lift out of the water in waves though so I went and tried out an extra long (25") shaft outboard. While that mostly solved the lifting issue it put the prop uncomfortable close to the rudder, so I moved the mount further outboard. While it is definitely possible to add an outboard to your boat I wouldn't and just get the diesel addressed either by rebuild or repower and just call the season a wash, the outboard seems to me to be hastle and an unnecessary expense. I'm personally a fan of No ties suggestion, it will definitely help you learn more about your new boat and save you lots of money to boot, just try to save the lions share of the beer till after the work day with the engine is complete... They are heavy and hurt when dropped on your foot... Don't ask how I learned that one ...

[alansmith]

It is only 2-3 days from August. No matter what you do your summer, in a practical cruel way, is toast. God has a way to present opportunities to us that look like misery wrapped in disaster. Maybe it is time for you to get in touch with your Diesel engine on a more personal level.

We have several ladies on this forum who have stripped their diesels apart and rebuilt them. Diesel engines are hardy and are simpler than gasoline engines. You just have to change your mind set. Is it scary? Yes, it is. Until you begin. Tools at Harbor Freight or borrowed are cheap. YouTube is valuable.

You will learn a new skill that will serve you well for the rest of your life. Don’t be afraid to tackle obstacles. If it is the high pressure fuel pump it is not that difficult. Replace anything else that needs replacing while you are at it? Hoses, injectors need servicing, belts, fuel filters, water separators, etc. You will no longer be a prisoner to fear. It doesn’t mean you will be successful. But you will gain knowledge and skill.

About the outboard. A ten hp long shaft OB will not work on a small dingy that you can use on A small sailboat. My Suzuki 9.8 weighs over 110 lbs with electric start and tilt. My Tohatsu 9.8 OB weighs about 80 lbs. If you do go that way... which I don’t recommend... is that the two best outboards with high thrust are the Suzuki and Yamaha. They are both excellent engines. Suzuki is fuel injected ( no carburetor to deal with) and it has manual pull start and electric. Yamaha is carburerated and has no pull start if it has electric start. (That is just strange to my mind. An outboard that has no manual start when your battery goes for a walk). So, that was a negative bias I developed against an excellent motor.

Here is the link on YouTube of a master craftsman’s conversion of an Alberg 30 over to a an outboard. What is unique is that he doesn’t hang it on the transom. If interested type it exactly as I write it. YouTube.be/QnQU1c2qx4c. Or look up Alberg 30 9.8HP outboard well by atom voyager. You better have a serious set of skills to do this project. Which I certainly don’t.

[Cheechako]

Yes buy a dingy outboard and a good adjustable bracket. It's a great place to store the dingy OB anyway.
Then rebuild the old engine at your leisure next winter. Is that a Volvo?
But first... how did it run before failure? Burn any oil? If not, maybe just rebuild the injection pump and use it. Or if you want to go further remove the head and have it looked at while your at it and clean everything up.
Just because an engine is ugly outside doesnt mean it is inside...

[alansmith]

First of all... it is just one man’s opinion. I have two small boats. One is a 30 foot trimaran built by Condor. The second is a 28 foot Sharpie. Both have outboards. I paid 2600 dollars for the Suzuki. I have bought spare prop, zinc, extra fuel filters, water pump parts (impeller), gear oil, grease, etc for 600 bucks. I change my own fluids, replace filters, and take care about fuel associated issues with Stabil. I am good for the next four years. I figure it costs me less 100 dollars a year. The extra prop was a large portion of that 600 dollars. I’m 67 years old. Those engines will last longer than I will.

Outboards are cheap to replace. Easy to work on. Parts are cheap. If taken care of will last 20 years. Need a new engine? Plunk down your $2500. You and your mate can get it off the transom and over to the shop if it is something too much.

Diesels stink, they heat your interior to intolerable ranges if in warm climates. They vibrate. They are also wonderful engines in longevity and fuel economy. They are not prone to cavitation like a poorly placed outboard is. They are expensive as hell to replace when they hit end of life. Think somewhere between 15-20K would be a fair statement. They are heavy. They have transmission and shaft glands that can be problematic. Thru hulls, hoses, exhaust elbows that corrode due to saltwater and galvanic issues. OMG... it makes me nutts. Ain’t far from it either.

So, pulling your diesel and replacing is an idea to consider. But your resale will surely be affected in a negative way. I still think your best bet is dig in and fix it.

When I was in the Marina yard for 6 months last year I met a guy named Ron. He was a true gear head. He took his truck up to some farm where a tractor had dieseled it’s way into a pond. Sat submergednfor two years. They pulled it out. And yanked the Diesel engine. He had that Diesel engine working again in a couple of weeks. Had to replace a couple of things like alternator and fuel pump. Cleaned injectors and other things. Point of the story is that Diesel engines are tough. Many of the Scandinavian fishing boats still use these little two banger Diesel engines. Older than I am and still working fine.

Time to dig in and get your mind around a ‘do it yourself’ repair! The first step is always the hardest part.

[stormalong]

That engine looks like a pile of rust! Was it sprayed with salt water and left to rust?

IMO an inboard is much better than an outboard. Especially if you plan to cruise anywhere. Diesel is safer than gas. It give you more electricity to run all the toys. In good condition it is far more reliable. It gives you better range and better thrust in rough conditions where an outboard would be coming out of the water.

Either replace it or pull it out and take it to a diesel engine rebuilder.

BTW, what engine is that?

If you can pull the engine and install a new one yourself the cost would be far less.

I replaced my Perkins 4-108 with a Beta 50 for about $8000 and one week of labor. That was in 2003 so adjust for inflation.

[Mike Banks]

I am definitely with Stormalong on this issue.

I would not be fitting an outboard to this craft. I would replace the diesel entirely with a new Japanese model--probably from a small tractor--and it would cost nothing like the amount quoted. About five thousand for a new diesel engine--and fitting such a small engine should be a breeze if the existing elbows and hoses can be used. Insurance premiums on petrol engines are high.

Repairing the existing engine, or a top and bottom end overhaul, should cost about the same as the new engine, if you deliver it to a garage that fixes tractors. While you are at it, have the gearbox also overhauled..

A new engine will add value to the vessel. An outboard will reduce its value by many thousands. You need about 20 horse power on a 30 foot vessel--but do not add the outboard. One of my pals did this against my advice. The value of his boat went from about $10k as it was to $6.5k WITH the new outboard--which is all he could get for it with a Honda 20HP 4 stroke high-thrust outboard--so he gave away the boat so to speak.

It would have cost him less to replace the engine and keep his boat value at $15-$18k or more, and more cheaply insured. Also--his beautiful boat looked like crap with this heavy junk hung off its arse, which now sat lower in the water. Also the stern had to be heavily reinforced to take the heavy outboard--which hung well out from the stern to allow it to be tilted.

What a disaster..

A comedy of errors--except it was not at all amusing. What is even sillier, was the fact that once he had done it, he no longer felt safe in it in the ocean with the balance all wrong, and he remained aboard living in an estuary until he sold it.

The new owner apparently has sold the Honda engine and put the money towards a new diesel engine and gearbox. He probably will not have any major expenses now for the next ten years, with a pretty boat ready to go safely pretty much anywhere he feels like taking it.